The NSC versus Rice and the Syria Strike

Is Rice or Cheney on first base? It is hard to tell. I had given up on the MEPP (Middle East Peace Process). The Sept. 6 strike on Syria seemed to be confirmation to me that the Washington hawks had won the struggle over how to deal with Syria – a key player if any real peace process is to emerge. Rice reportedly did not want it bombed. The fellows at the National Security Council did. The bombing has set back the chances of the MEPP developing any momentum.

Eliott Abrams and Hadley have been insisting that the MEPP is all process, meant only to provide cover for Saudi Arabia and "moderate" Arab states to back US policy toward Iraq and Iran. This summer, Cheney had been telling Arab leaders not to take Rice's MEPP seriously. We were also told that the Israeli intelligence on Syria's alleged nuclear plant was not shared with the State Department but was held by the NSC. This makes one wonder if the raid was meant to scuttle Rice's MEPP as much as it was meant to scuttle the North Korean deal that President Bush was signing onto, but which upset his hawkish advisers.

Here is what Abrams told Republican Jews not long ago:

| Forward, Fri. May 11, 2007

At a regular gathering of Jewish Republicans, sources said, Abrams described President Bush as an “emergency brake” who would prevent Israel from being pressed into a deal; during the breakfast gathering, the White House official also said that a lot of what is done during Rice’s frequent trips to the region is “just process” — steps needed in order to keep the Europeans and moderate Arab countries “on the team” and to make sure they feel that the United States is promoting peace in the Middle East…

Nationally syndicated columnist Robert Novak accused Abrams of preventing the administration from having a “coherent Middle East policy” which would engage Iran and Syria in an attempt to stabilize Iraq. “I do know that there are a number of Israelis who would like to engage Syria,” Hagel told Novak. “They have said that Elliott Abrams keeps pushing them back.”

Foreign ministers, ambassadors and former Americans officials as saying they believe Abrams “is making policy in the Middle East.” Israel, according to sources close to decision-makers in Jerusalem, also sees Abrams as the leading policy figure in the administration on Middle East issues, a status that has led Olmert to keep an open channel of communications with Bush’s senior adviser. According to the sources, Abrams is also a leading voice in trying to convince American Jews to be more supportive of the war in Iraq….

But this morning I was given a boost by Rice's statement that President Bush is fully behind her drive to make something real out of the MEPP.

Ms Rice said President Bush planned to focus his efforts on achieving a resolution to the long-running Israeli-Palestinian conflict at a news conference with Mr Abbas,

"The president has decided to make this one of the highest priorities of his administration and of his time in office," she said. "It means he is absolutely serious about moving this issue forward and moving it as rapidly as possible to conclusion."

She said the peace conference planned to be held in Annapolis, Maryland, should be "serious and substantive". (BBC)

News Analysis
By DAVID E. SANGER

WASHINGTON, Oct. 14 — It was President Bush who, a year after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, rewrote America’s national security strategy to warn any nation that might be thinking of trying to develop atomic weapons that it could find itself the target of a pre-emptive military strike.

But that was the fall of 2002, when the world looked very different from how it does in the fall of 2007. Now, the case of Syria, which Israeli and American analysts suspect was trying to build a nuclear reactor, has become a prime example of what can happen when Mr. Bush’s first-term instincts run headlong into second-term realities.

Five years later, dealing with nations that may have nuclear weapons ambitions — but are also staying within the letter of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty — looks a lot more complicated than it once did.

This time it was the Israelis who invoked Mr. Bush’s doctrine, determining that what they believed was a nascent Syrian effort to build a nuclear reactor could not be tolerated.

In a curious role reversal, some of Mr. Bush’s own top advisers were urging restraint before Israel bombed the site on Sept. 6, raising questions about whether the threat was too murky and too distant to warrant military action. Those are precisely the kinds of questions Mr. Bush’s critics say should have been raised about Iraq.

It may be months or years before all the mysteries surrounding the attack on Syria become clear. The silence of the Middle Eastern countries that would normally condemn an Israeli attack suggested that they, too, were worried about what was happening in the Syrian desert. Then there is the question of whether, and how, North Korea may have been involved, since the reactor project seemed similar to the one Kim Jong-il’s government had designed to generate plutonium for a small but potent nuclear arsenal.

What has become clear is that the risks of taking pre-emptive action now look a lot greater to Mr. Bush than they did in 2003, when he declared that Iraq’s efforts to build weapons of mass destruction — weapons that famously turned out not to exist — justified military action. In the Syrian case he has steadfastly refused to say anything. In the case of Iran, which has defied the United Nations for a year while it builds a nuclear infrastructure that Washington believes is designed to give it the ability to make bomb fuel, Mr. Bush publicly insists there is still plenty of time for diplomacy.

Michael Green, a former director for Asia at the National Security Council and now a professor at Georgetown University, suggested that Mr. Bush was acutely conscious that he had 15 months left, little time for accomplishments that could counterbalance Iraq. Israel’s pre-emptive strike, he said, “could get in the way of his two biggest projects — getting on a path to stabilizing the Middle East, and getting North Korea to give up its weapons.”

By contrast, Mr. Green said, the Israelis are thinking five or 10 years ahead. They saw a chance to thwart the Syrians and to fire a warning shot that the Iranians could not fail to notice.

“If you are Israel and you are looking at this, the value of striking Syria is that it sends a signal, including to the Iranians,” Mr. Green said. “This follows the Chinese proverb that sometimes you have to kill the chicken to scare the monkey.”

That, of course, was part of the logic of Iraq in early 2003. In those days, Mr. Bush’s aides talked about how 9/11 had reduced America’s willingness to tolerate the risk that a hostile state would gain weapons of mass destruction. They spoke of the “demonstration effect” that toppling Saddam Hussein would have around the world. Under this theory, the North Koreans and the Iranians, among others, would see what happened in Iraq and reconsider their nuclear ambitions.

It did not turn out that way. North Korea evicted international inspectors after the Bush administration charged Mr. Kim’s government with cheating on a Clinton-era nuclear accord, and then raced to produce enough fuel for eight to a dozen nuclear weapons. The North Koreans conducted a nuclear test, with limited success, a year ago. Whether they also sold designs or parts of their nuclear infrastructure remains the subject of investigation and debate because of the Syria project.

Iran raced ahead, too, building centrifuges that can enrich uranium, even though the United Nations Security Council has imposed some sanctions and threatened more.

While those sanctions have failed, any rumors in Washington about a strike against Tehran’s nuclear facilities are greeted by senior administration officials with some version of the question, “Then what?” Iran, they say, has too many ways to strike back at American interests — in Iraq, in the oil markets and throughout the Middle East.

With the American military stretched in Iraq, the credibility of any American threat to take pre-emptive action elsewhere in the Middle East — and to deal with the consequences — is questionable. Moreover, Mr. Bush has made no secret of his desire to leave office with some diplomatic victories.

Already, that has muted the talk about pre-emptive strikes; the president who five years ago talked constantly about the dangers of “the world’s worst weapons” in Saddam Hussein’s hands has been far more measured about Iran and Syria.

Getting a deal with North Korea to disgorge its own nuclear fuel and weapons may require looking past whatever North Korea might have sold to another country. And it may mean engaging the Syrians, even before they answer the question of what, exactly, they were building in the desert.

Ken Ellingwood, Los Angeles Times, October 15, 2007

On Sunday, some Israeli analysts expressed skepticism that the target was a nuclear reactor. The reported site of the strike, far from the center of Syria near the borders with Turkey and Iraq, would seem an unlikely venue for a project of such significance, said Efraim Inbar, a weapons expert who directs the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv.

"The location of such a site I don't think would be the best place. It's too close to Turkey and Iraq," Inbar said. "I have my doubts."

Syria has carried out an ambitious chemical weapons program, but Inbar said Syria was not known to have pursued nuclear capabilities.

"They have wanted strategic parity for years with Israel," Inbar said. "But so far, they went with the cheapest and easiest way, which was chemical weapons."

Eyal Zisser, a Syria expert who directs the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University, agreed it would be surprising if Syria had made progress on a nuclear program.

But he said Syrian President Bashar Assad feels isolated and threatened by the Bush administration and may have sought a measure of security by trying to develop a nuclear program with the help of North Korea, with which Syria has forged ties.

"It was not on the agenda before these reports, but this is very logical from the point of view of Syria," Zisser said.

VIENNA (Reuters) – The U.N. nuclear watchdog did not know about any undeclared atomic plant in Syria and has asked Damascus about information that such a site was targeted by an Israeli air strike, a spokeswoman said on Monday.

Citing unidentified U.S. and foreign officials with access to intelligence reports, the New York Times said on Sunday the nuclear reactor was partially built and apparently modeled on one in North Korea used for stockpiling atomic bomb fuel. Israel confirmed earlier this month that it had carried out a September 6 air strike on Syria but has not described the target. Syrian president Bashar al-Assad said the target was an unused military building.

"The International Atomic Energy Agency is in contact with the Syrian authorities to verify the authenticity of these reports," said IAEA spokeswoman Melissa Fleming.

"The IAEA has no information about any undeclared nuclear facility in Syria and no information about recent reports," she said in a statement issued from the IAEA's Vienna headquarters.

Comments (80)


AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Mr. Sanger’s analysis is deeply flawed. If Bush were afraid of an armed confrontation with Iran would he have approved the Israeli strike knowing full well that it may lead to war with both Syria and Iran? Of course not. Bush is just waiting for Syria and Iran to make a mistake.

October 16th, 2007, 4:43 am

 

Nour said:

AIG,

What mistake is he waiting for exactly? He’s already claimed that Iran is building Nuclear weapons, arming Iraqi insurgents, and killing US soldiers. Why doesn’t he just attack? What is he waiting for? I really don’t know what mistake he’s expecting Iran to make.

October 16th, 2007, 5:24 am

 

Frank al Irlandi said:

Simohurtta said in response to another post.

With information with Osirak Israel didn’t hesitate. They “painted ” to the public a picture where Israel on the last second had boldly destroyed a full scale nuclear weapon program. Naturally Israeli propagandists do not want the world to remember, that Osirak was a small experimental light water reactor under IAEA supervision.

The US/Israeli “sources” are frequently saying that Middle Eastern countries minus naturally Israel do not need nuclear energy because they have so much gas and oil. That is a rather weak excuse, remembering that USA was ready to sell 10 nuclear power stations to the Shah, that enlightened democratic leader. Also on economical basis the excuses is rather amusing. If one can produce energy cheaper with nuclear energy than using gas and oil, why use income brining assets.

He raises a very important point that has got me close to tearing my hair out with frustration.

Len Waverman in the Roeller Waverman equations about economic development shows the economic growth mainly depends on Teledensity, Electrical Power Generation capacity and km of hardtop roads.

You will have read of the power outages in Syria this summer casued by the drought in Turkey cutting back on the available imports of electrical power from Turkish hydro generation. This interferes with delivery of reliable up to date telecommunications.

Global warming means that hydroelectric generation of electrical power needs to be reviewed because of the loss of river water due to increased evaporation from the reservoirs.

Nuclear generation remains then the only reliable source of power.

If the seven million inhabitants of Israel can have a practical veto (by F-15 and laser guided bomb) over the economic development of anyone of the 200 million living within 2000 km of the place then there is a major problem.

Mr Ahmedinejad has done the world a service by highlighting the question, and by undermining the myth that Islamic states are industrially backward by cooking his own home grown (he has a mine in the middle of the country) Uranium.

October 16th, 2007, 5:36 am

 

b said:

Why is the IAEA asking Syria about the non existent nuclear stuff?

Shouldn’t the ask those who spread the rumours about their sources?

October 16th, 2007, 9:47 am

 

ausamaa said:

After reading the informative and assuring comments by some vey knowledgabel commentators here on Syria Comment and the various reports in the Knowledgable US media, I am now leaning towards the Theory that Syria is not only developing atomic weapons, but does heve few in its arsenel. Premitive ones maybe, but Nucks anyway.

So, pleases, pretty please, Super Neo-con Power Mr. Bush and Mr. Victorious Olmert, cut the crap and start acting instead of just talk! Do and DO something about it to finish off this naughty country. Past and Current experience proved that Threats and Talk, coming especially from the both of your camps will get you no where.

P.S.

That is, If you dare and if you have the capabilities to do it in thight of the prevailing military and political realities in the area.

Best Regards

October 16th, 2007, 10:47 am

 

Akbar Palace said:

I am now leaning towards the Theory that Syria is not only developing atomic weapons, but does heve few in its arsenel.

Ausamma,

No, it couldn’t be! Did you and the chorus here say the whole Israeli operation was a failure and that their attack was some neocon-manipulated farce and “disinformation” campaign? Isn’t the esteemed Arabist Ray Close (whoever he is) correct by stating the neocons are trying to instill fear on the helpless Americans?

Surely you can’t be serious!

B asks:

Why is the IAEA asking Syria about the non existent nuclear stuff?

This looks like a question for Ausamma (which is a very popular name today in the Middle East).

Nour asks:

What mistake is he waiting for exactly? He’s already claimed that Iran is building Nuclear weapons, arming Iraqi insurgents, and killing US soldiers. Why doesn’t he just attack? What is he waiting for? I really don’t know what mistake he’s expecting Iran to make.

Answer:

Sneezing. GWB will acts the next time Iran sneezes. I found this in a Sy Hersh article.

October 16th, 2007, 11:15 am

 

Wassim said:

Nour was asking a question earlier about what GWB is waiting for. Dare I put forth the idea that the United States and Israel actually “cannot” do anything? I don’t buy the idea that the war last year was a half hearted attempt at Hezbullah. I also don’t believe the United States is not seriously attempting to consolidate it’s control of Iraq. Can we not argue that in fact they are unable or am I being naive and missing something out?

October 16th, 2007, 11:42 am

 

Akbar Palace said:

Websites Professors of Middle East studies and jihadist sympathizers don’t like to participate on:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27528_IAEA_Springs_Into_Action_Contacts_Syria#comments

October 16th, 2007, 11:55 am

 

SimoHurtta said:

Akbar the Littlegreenfootballs “forgets” strangely the other essential part of IAEA spokeswoman’s message. And stops quoting the news where it fits for the men with small balls. Either it is an primitive attempt of making propaganda or little men can read only short stories.

The next chapter of the news by Reuters, which LGF did not want its readers to see, is:

“We would obviously investigate any relevant information coming our way. The IAEA Secretariat expects any country having information about nuclear-related activities in another country to provide that information to the IAEA.

That includes Israel and USA. Doesn’t it Akbar.

In total the Reuters news can be read through this link.

Littlegreenfootbals quite a good name your club has chosen, describes your team well. Now I understand better where you have learned your rather limited argumentation skills, the sites comments intellectual level is simply astonishing. Examples

Pro-Bush Canuck 10/15/07 3:04:34 pm

Well Sox and Cleveland coming right up. Almost time to fire up the plasma…

bulwrk 10/15/07 3:07:16 pm

well come on down loading porn takes up alot of their time.

jcm 10/15/07 3:09:54 pm

IEAE, looking for a Syrian reactor?
Ask the IAF for the coordinates of a smokin’ hole.

By the way Akbar who wants read 396 messages with such stupidity? After reading one hundred messages I stopped and began really to worry about the education level of US “republican voters”.

LitteGreenFootballs won the “Best Israel Advocacy Blog” award from the Jerusalem Post in 2005. Shows the quality of the few Israel supporters around the world.

http://info.jpost.com/C005/BlogCentral/JIB.2005/vote1.advoc.html

Simply astonishing …

October 16th, 2007, 1:42 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

Bush cannot attack until he has convinced the American public that all diplomatic options have been exausted. Of course, if Iran or Syria attack first, he will have a right to react immediately. That is the mistake he is waiting for.

Israel has justed bombed Syria. Yet some people are saying Israel cannot do anything. Are you serious? What has been proven is that the Syrian and Iranian air-defenses are not worth anything and that the attack will be easier than anticipated.

October 16th, 2007, 1:58 pm

 

why-discuss said:

AIG

What has been proven is that the Syrian and Iranian air-defenses are not worth anything and that the attack will be easier than anticipated.

Then US should go ahead, bomb Iran and allow Israelis, or what will be left of them, to live happily ever after with no more threats.
I wonder if you’ll still be here to tell us about the experience of receiving hell on your head.
Come on, be serious, a war with Iran may be the end of Israel and the US and Israel administration know it very well. Both have learned a lesson of humility in Iraq and the July 2006 war.

October 16th, 2007, 2:46 pm

 

why-discuss said:

Tzipi and Condie are very good friends, and Tzipi eagerly wants to become the next prime minister. Both of them are determined and struggling against men opposing a peaceful approach: Olmert and Cheney. Let see if women power will give a new impetus to a peace process.

October 16th, 2007, 2:51 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Why,

You are delirious. What can Iran do except send missiles? You forget that Israel was under attack in 1991 and 2006 and while the missiles are no fun, they are certainly not an existential threat.

So what if the Iranians will fire hundreds of missiles? Because of the distance, Israelis will have ample time to get into shelters. It will take at least 2 hours for the missiles to get to Israel after launch. Israel will quickly rebuild, just as we did after the July war and the Israel’s economy will hardly be bothered.

An attack by Iran on Israel would be a reasonable price to pay to get rid of the Iranian nuclear threat. Israel is used to making sacrifices for its security. And yes, if the diplomatic options fail, Iran will be attacked.

October 16th, 2007, 3:18 pm

 

Observer said:

This is from Ray Close a an CIA analyst and this from Informed comment of Juan Cole
Retired CIA analyst of Arab affairs Ray Close tells us what he thinks about it all:

“This is my Monday morning (speculative) analysis of the mysterious Israeli air attack on Syria on September 6, 2007 . . :

1. The Israelis offered us intelligence that Syria is beginning to develop a nuclear capability based on North Korean technology. They urged the US to cooperate with them in mounting a military attack to destroy the Syrian site. The advantages of this action, as presented to the Bush administration with great urgency by the Israelis, would be:

a. To preempt a new and dangerous violation of Israeli and American proliferation red lines before the Syrian program gets too far along (citing the Iranian experience for justification);

b. To intimidate and embarrass Syria; throw a scare into Iran; and restore Israel’s deterrence credibility. (The historic examples of dramatically successful and awe-inspiring Israeli operations at Entebbe and Osirak, among others, still have great psychological and emotional impact.)

2. The more cautious and thoughtful members of the Bush administration opposed offering Israel the full participatory collaboration of the United States on the grounds that:

a. The Israeli intelligence in this case was not entirely persuasive, recalling instances of flawed intelligence of similar origin that misinformed some key US actions before and during the Iraq war;

b. If covert US-Israeli collaboration in this operation (technically an act of war) were actually proffered, this would eventually become known. The accuracy and authenticity of the Israeli intelligence on which the operational decision was justified would (in the absence of more credible supporting evidence from independent US sources), become the subject of heated public debate all over the world, and opponents of the Bush administration would argue with potentially devastating effect that this was final proof that Bush neocons have continually (in fact, going back many years) been duped by deliberate Israeli disinformation operations aimed at scaring America into adopting a policy of more overt and aggressive military cooperation with Israel;

c. Even if the Israeli intelligence were finally revealed to contain some credible evidence of Syria’s long-range ambitions to obtain nuclear weapons and of North Korea’s culpability in abetting those plans, the revelation of US-Israeli covert military collaboration against Syria at this critical time would, over the short term, endanger George W. Bush’s desperate hopes of achieving some dramatic diplomatic successes before the end of his administration —- most importantly with respect to North Korea and next month’s planned Middle East Peace talks here in the US.

3. Ongoing heated arguments within the administration over whether or not to coordinate US and Israeli actions and reactions in this instance have been won, at least temporarily, by the side that gives higher priority to preserving and sustaining the diplomatic efforts, on the grounds that short-term progress in both the North Korean and Israeli-Palestinian situations should trump, at least for the time being, the acknowledged high value also attached to the more aggressive alternative measures urgently and vigorously advocated by the Olmert government in Israel and by Israel’s supporters here in the United States.

4. There are undoubtedly some Democratic notables, in key Congressional positions of leadership and on the electoral hustings, who have been officially briefed (or who have been independently informed by interested third parties) of the whole set of considerations outlined above, and who have, for reasons best known to themselves, decided to support the more cautious objective of keeping this potentially explosive issue under wraps for as long as possible. (I don’t discount at all the possibility that some support, probably in the form of technical intelligence, was nevertheless indeed provided to the Israeli planners by the US before or during the bombing operation. That just qualifies as a small skeleton in the closet compared to the backlash we would suffer for active operational collaboration in such an undertaking.)

Personally, I believe that the most persuasive reason for studied silence on this subject, on the part of both Republicans and Democrats, is the reluctance (call it fear) of individual politicians that they might be put in a position of appearing to criticize Israel for poor judgment (or even deliberate deception), and thereby appearing to oppose intimate collaboration with Israel (yes, even in acts of illegitimate preemptive military action) against “supporters of terrorism”.

I would add the following personal comments to my analysis of the situation:

Having dealt with Arabs for more than fifty years now, often in situations very similar to this one,I have no trouble understanding why the Syrian reaction to the Israeli bombing attack last month has been carefully muted. Asad cannot afford a military confrontation with Israel at this time. His air force and army could be effectively wiped out by the IDF in a few hours. And he has no desire to broadcast the fact that his air defense forces (some of which, I am told, consist of very expensive new ground-to-air rocketry purchased from Russia but not yet operational) were impotent to respond in the face of such a deep and brazen Israeli penetration of the Syrian motherland. It would be plainly foolhardy for the Syrians to attempt confrontation with the IDF when their military establishment is in such a parlous state as it is today. I therefore find it perfectly understandable that Asad has chosen not to fly off the handle over this incident, and why his Arab neighbors and supposed brothers in arms have likewise decided that the better part of valor is to pretend they haven’t noticed.

I recall in the period right after the 1973 Yom Kippur War, when I was in liaison with the Saudis, that the Israeli Air Force used to make frequent very low level runs over the Saudi airbase at Tobuk, in the northern part of the country. As they skimmed the “deck”, they would drop empty fuel tanks on the runways, near where the Saudi fighter planes were lined up, just to remind those on the ground that the empty tanks could very easily have been 500-pound bombs. It was nothing more than an arrogant demonstration of contempt for Saudi impotence. It worked. The RSAF never fired a shot, and never scrambled a single interceptor. They would complain to me, and I would duly forward their protests to CIA HQS. We never got even a polite acknowledgement back from the Israelis, who, in their arrogance, were no doubt cynically amused. So I can easily imagine Bashar al-Asad’s decision to play this current incident in a very low key! It is not a mark of cowardice, but of realism and prudence.

Similarly, I recall when Prince Fahd bin Abdal Aziz called me to a meeting very late one evening in the early days of the 1973 war and asked me to send an urgent personal message from him to Richard Nixon informing the president that he had felt obliged to contribute a brigade of Saudi troops to the Golan front to support the Syrian offensive there, but that he had personally instructed the commander of the unit not to fire a single shot. That, Fahd told me with considerable emotion and obvious sincerity, was his solemn promise to his American friend. Again, prudence, wisdom, and desire to maintain a traditional and mutually valuable relationship — motives that were not, I regret to say, received in Washington with the respect and appreciation that they deserved. ”

-Ray Close

October 16th, 2007, 3:32 pm

 

Akbar Palace said:

AIG –

Please stop taunting the jihadist sympathizers and the “Shabbos Goy”. Can’t you give them some hope at destroying Israel?

—-

Observer,

Thanks for linking that Ray Close article again. I feel the more I read it the more I sympathize with Saudi Prince leader.

October 16th, 2007, 3:32 pm

 

ausamaa said:

Akbar Palace,

you mentioned the words “Shabboos Goy?” above. What the heck does those words mean in plain English? This site -as you may have correctly suspected- is not an AIPAC get toghether where using Yeddish words is considered an advantage.

For me, the only Yeddish word relvant to Israel and Zionism that I know is “Chutzbah” !

So please, this is not bthe US Congress, so try to get down from the high horse you are riding there (for the time being), and try to use words that normal (Gonime?, is that All others by any chance?) can understand.

October 16th, 2007, 3:50 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

You and Bush both know that Iran and Syria are not going to attack first. So if Bush is waiting for such a development, he’ll be out of office before anything happens. On the other hand, the Bush administration has repeatedly claimed that Iran has already started a war on the US by supporting the insurgents, and has bombarded us with propaganda about Iran’s nuclear threat. So why doesn’t he act now?

As for Iran and Syria’s air defenses being worthless, isn’t that what Israel thought before the 1973 war? Only to find out that those air defenses were much more potent than previously believed? Are you seriously going to base your judgment of Syria and Iran’s air defenses on one raid in northern Syria right across the Turkish border? In any case, Syria is not going to back down and is not going to give in to Israeli hegemony, so why don’t you do something about it? What is keeping Israel from attacking Syria now?

P.S. Did you see the Maariv article today that quoted Israeli military experts saying that Israel does not have the ability to confront a Syrian missile attack should a war break out?

October 16th, 2007, 3:56 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

AP,

I just find the amount of denial and the reluctance to face facts in the Arab world fascinating.

You know what, let’s tell them the BIG SECRET how to become strong. Maybe I shouldn’t? Naw, I think I will.

Here it is: Build liberal democratic societies that are technologically advanced. Nothing else will work.

You say the Chinese model might work for you? Don’t forget that part of the Chinese model is having one child per family. Do you think that will happen in the Arab world? There are so many reasons why the Chinese model will not work for the Arabs.

How about Sim explaining to you the Finnish model? It is a very good one, no sarcasm intended. Adopt it, and you will beat Israel quickly.

October 16th, 2007, 4:00 pm

 

ausamaa said:

AIG and Company are still living in their good old days of June 1967. Denial is hard to get over. But eventually, the facts of life will sink in. At a certain cost of course. But that is Israel’s and the Israelies problem I guess not ours. They have to come to terms with reality. I mean new and evolving realities. Untill then..!!!

October 16th, 2007, 4:05 pm

 

why-discuss said:

AIG

What a bellicous and desperate attitude…

October 16th, 2007, 4:05 pm

 

ausamaa said:

That is Normal state of mind for those guys, what is new???!!!

October 16th, 2007, 4:10 pm

 

Akbar Palace said:

AIG –

With a small nudge of my elbow into your Zionist “beten”, please change the subject.

Ausamma asks:

you mentioned the words “Shabboos Goy?” above. What the heck does those words mean in plain English?

This famous and most instructive term was first introduced by Professor Landis (please see the link below). Notice, not only is “Shabbos Goy” misspelled by both you and the Professor, but you get the added treat of a Wikipedia translation (hat-tip: Prof. Josh) and the first linked articles portraying the Israeli “failure” somewhere near the edges of Syrian airspace. Fortunately, the mighty SAF repelled the Zionist aircraft just after they were forced to drop an external fuel tank somewhere in the desert.

http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=373

October 16th, 2007, 4:13 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

Couldn’t find the Maariv article you mentioned but where did I say Israel has an answer? All I said that the missiles will land and cause damadge in Israel that will quickly be fixed while Syria will not recover in 30 years if it shoots missiles at Israel.

You really don’t understand how America works. Bush will have to show that he has exausted all diplomatic options before attacking Iran.

Regarding the air defenses, how about what Close said that Syria will succumb in several hours? And that Syria would be crazy to respond? All the indications are that Syria has no answer to Israel air superiority.

The bottom line is simple: the risk of Iran possessing a nuclear bomb is so large that it is worth risking an all out war with Syria for it. It is up to the Syrians whether the war will actually happen. I doubt it. Asad is a mean and evil thug, but he is not that stupid.

October 16th, 2007, 4:14 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

AP,
I accept the nudge but would like to ask: Lama? Ma haba’aya?

October 16th, 2007, 4:19 pm

 

ausamaa said:

Al Harriri Assaination , a new article by the Lebanese Al Akhbar newspaper. But where the hell did they get those details from and why aint the Feb 14 Crowd refuting all this ??

http://www.al-akhbar.com/ar/node/50301

السعودي أكبر يعترف بتفاصيل التفخيخ والاستطلاع وتنفيذ الاغتيال
فداء عيتاني

يخلص الموقوف السعودي فيصل أكبر إلى الاعتراف بكيفيّة تصوير أحمد أبو عدس، وفيصل أكبر هو المدرب الأمني لمجموعة الـ13 بحسب نصوص التحقيقات. وفي حين كانت التحقيقات تتّجه أكثر فأكثر نحو جمع اعترافات المجموعة عن دورها في العراق، تنتقل فجأة للتركيز على موضوع أبو عدس، وتسجيل شريط الفيديو. إلا أنّ ما سيُدلي به الموقوف فيصل أكبر سيوضح الصورة إلى حين، وسيُعيدنا إلى رواية أسقطها التحقيق الدولي قبل أن يقدّم لنا إشارات تتقاطع مع التحقيقات الدولية بنسختها الأخيرة

يتابع الموقوف السعودي فيصل أكبر رواية تفاصيل عملية تسجيل شريط الفيديو لأحمد أبو عدس في إحدى الشقق السرّية في سوريا، قبل تنفيذ عملية اغتيال رفيق الحريري. وفي الآتي متابعة جلسة التحقيق مع فيصل أكبر: قمنا بالتصوير وكان شاكر يحمل الكاميرا، وأنا وخالد واقفين بجانبه، أنا في الجهة اليمنى وخالد في الجهة اليسرى، وكانت الكاميرا بيد شاكر الذي وقف بمواجهة أحمد. نجحت هذه التجربة حيث أعدنا عرضها على شاشة الكاميرا التي تُفتح.

ملف خاص
مجموعة الـ ١٣ وجريمة اغتيال الحريري اتصل خالد من هاتفه الخلوي بهاتف جميل، وأعلمه أن الفيلم أصبح جاهزاً. في اليوم التالي انتقلنا أنا وأحمد وخالد إلى حلب بسيارة مستأجرة من نوع «سكودا ـــ بيك آب» لون أبيض مغلقة، حيث المزرعة، وهي منشأة تابعة لتنظيم القاعدة، وهي بإدارة الملقّب سامي وتقع في منطقة طريق الزرية، وهناك استقبلنا الشيخ راشد ونبيل وجميل.
أصحّح لكم أن جميل كان قد حضر إلى دمشق في ذلك اليوم، وهو مَن اصطحبنا بالسيارة المذكورة. وبوصولنا إلى المزرعة نحن الأربعة، جميل وخالد وأنا وأحمد أبو عدس، استقبلنا سامي والشيخ راشد. بعد السلام، اجتمعنا إلى المائدة. بعدها، اختلى الشيخ راشد وجميل بأحمد أبو عدس وبقيت في الخارج أنا وخالد وسامي. دام الاجتماع المغلق مع أبو عدس لثلاث ساعات، خرجوا بعدها من الغرفة؛ قام الشيخ راشد ونبيل بعرض فيلم تبنّي العملية بواسطة وصل الكاميرا إلى التلفزيون (حجم 18 بوصة، أذكر أنه من نوع Toshiba لونه فضي)، ولاقى الشريط استحسان الشيخ راشد.
بعدها، وبناءً لأمر جميل، انتقلنا أنا وأبو عدس وخالد وجميل الذي يقود السيارة إلى حمص حيث المضافة التي يديرها جميل، وهي تقع في منطقة الخالدية قرب جامع النور في حي شعبي في بناية من أربع طبقات: لكل طبقة شقة، ويشغل جميل الطبقة الثانية. بجانب هذه البناية يوجد سوبر ماركت، وقد مكثنا في الشقة ليومين من أجل التحضير لانتقالنا إلى لبنان بغية تنفيذ عملية اغتيال الحريري.
قام جميل بتوزيع مبلغ خمسين ألف دولار كان قد تسلمه من راشد. أعطاني عشرة آلاف دولار أميركي من فئة المئة وأعطى خالد عشرة أخرى واحتفظ بثلاثين ألف دولار، هي مصاريف لتمويل العملية. في هذه الأثناء، كان جميل قد استحصل لنا من مراد على هويات سورية بأسماء مزيفة، عليها رسومنا الشمسية، وهي أربع هويات سورية. وكان اسمي المزوّر الجديد حسن العيد، واسم الوالدة غيداء، تولّد 1977 سوري. أما أبو عدس وجميل وخالد، فلم أعرف أسماءهم المزوّرة في الهويات المذكورة. بعد انقضاء اليومين، وحسب ما أذكر بتاريخ 28/1/2005، انتقلنا من حمص بسيارة السكودا إلى دمشق، وكان جميل يقود وأبو عدس بجانبه وأنا وخالد في المقعد الخلفي. وصلنا إلى دمشق حوالى العاشرة صباحاً؛ أركن جميل سيارة السكودا في مكان قرب كاراج حرستا مقابل محلات الشحن والمطاعم في الشارع العام، وأعتقد أنه ترك المفتاح داخل السيارة وأقفلها، علماً بأن الشيخ راشد لديه نسخة عن مفتاحها، ولسوف يرسل شاكر لاحقاً لأخذ السيارة لإرجاعها إلى مكان استئجارها. ركبنا تاكسي نحن الأربعة علماً بأن الملابس والسيارة والكاميرا والفيلم المسجّل بقيت لدى الشيخ راشد في المزرعة.

ذهولٌ بعد شيوع نبأ الجريمة (أرشيف – يونس الزعتري)
وبوجودنا في التاكسي جلس جميل قرب السائق، الذي لا نعرفه، وجلست أنا وخالد وأبو عدس في المقعد الخلفي، باتجاه حديقة تشرين. ترجّلنا من التاكسي، دفع جميل مبلغ 35 ليرة سورية للسائق، ولم نكن نحمل أية ملابس إضافية أو أغراض معنا. وقرب الحديقة «تشرين» على الزاوية الشمالية الموجود عليها كشك للجرائد، التقينا المهرّب الذي كان بانتظارنا في سيارة تاكسي سورية، وهي باص نوع مازدا لون أبيض من طراز حديث. ركبنا الباص باتجاه جديدة يابوس، وهناك ترجلنا مع المهرّب. دفعنا مبلغ ثمانين ألف ليرة سورية للمهرّب لقاء تهريبنا عبر الحدود، حيث اجتزنا الأراضي السورية بفترة حوالى ساعة، بدأنا نزولاً ثم صعوداً بجبل ثم نزولاً، علماً بأننا كنا قد نقلنا على دراجة نارية قديمة العهد كانت متوقفة قرب منزل المهرّب، وكان يعمد إلى نقل كل واحد منا بمفرده لمسافة ربع ساعة ليعود ويصطحب الآخر، وقد نقل في البداية جميل ثم أبو عدس ثم خالد وأخيراً أنا، وقد ترك أخيراً الدراجة أثناء مرحلة الصعود في الجبل، حيث هناك قرية سورية صغيرة أجهل اسمها ولدى المهرّب معارف فيها.
لدى وصولنا إلى الأراضي اللبنانية في مكان ما قرب المصنع، سرنا حتّى وصلنا إلى الطريق العام في المصنع. استقللنا سيارة تاكسي مرسيدس حمراء اللون إلى مدينة شتورا قرب الصرّافين. دفعنا أربعة آلاف ليرة لبنانية للسائق، دفعها جميل. وقام جميل بتصريف مبلغ خمسمئة دولار أميركي إلى العملة اللبنانية في محل صيرفة ومطعم في محل واحد. لا أذكر اسم المحل، لكني أستطيع دلالتكم إليه، وكان لا يزال المهرّب معنا ويدعى أحمد، وهو الشخص نفسه الذي ذكرته لكم من أنه أحضر أحمد أبو عدس بداية إلى دمشق.
عمد أحمد المهرّب إلى استئجار فان مع سائقه، وهو من نوع هيونداي على ما أذكر، لونه زيتي، سائقه عمره حوالى 35 سنة، له شارب حليق الذقن. جلس المهرّب قرب السائق وجلسنا نحن في الخلف، وبدأنا الرحلة باتجاه بيروت؛ لم نتوقف على الطريق؛ كان هناك زحمة سير، واستغرقت الرحلة حوالى ساعتين. وصلنا بيروت حوالى الثانية بعد الظهر إلى محلة الكولا، دفع جميل بواسطة المهرّب خمسة عشر ألف ليرة للسائق، الذي اصطحب معه المهرّب وغادرا.
استقللنا تاكسي نوع مرسيدس لون أبيض إلى الضاحية الجنوبية في مكان أجهله. يوجد هناك محطة وقود وبنك الجمال على ما أذكر. دخلنا بناية في سوق شعبي وهي مؤلفة من ثلاث طبقات. شكل البناية غير مرتب. صعدنا إلى الطبقة الثانية حيث توجد شقتان، دخلنا إلى الشقة في الجهة اليمنى وبابها خشبي بنيّ اللون، كان جميل قد استأجرها في تاريخ سابق وقد أبدل قفل الباب. فتح الباب بمفتاحه الذي كان لديه، وكانت الشقّة تحوي أثاثاً بسيطاً: حوالى ستّ فرشات إسفنج وخمس مخدّات وستّ بطانيات، وهناك حصر على الأرض بلاستيك.
جلسنا هناك. نزل بعدها جميل وغاب لمدة ساعة تقريباً ثمّ عاد يحمل مأكولات من مطعم KFC. أكلنا نحن الأربعة، أي خالد وأنا وجميل وأبو عدس، وكان أبو عدس قد حلق ذقنه قبل حضورنا إلى لبنان، ونمنا لكوننا تعبين من الرحلة.
في اليوم التالي، أي في 1/2/2005، وكان جميل قد أحضر لدى خروجه في الليلة السابقة جهاز هاتف من نوع نوكيا طراز 3300 لون كحلي وفيه خط خلوي لبناني لا أعرف رقمه؛ خرج خالد وجميل من الشقة، بقيت أنا وأبو عدس في الشقة لغاية حضور جميل وخالد ليلاً. أعتقد أنهما أحضرا ملابس وبيجامات وملابس داخلية وأغراضاً للأكل؛ أكلنا وبعدها تحادثت أنا وجميل بفصول العملية حيث أخبرني جميل بأنه يسعى لشراء سيارة بيك آب، وأن جماعته تعمل على العثور على هكذا سيارة، كما أعلمني بوجود فريق مراقبة ورصد يتتبع حركة تنقلات الهدف قبل ثلاثة أسابيع من وصولنا لبنان، وأنهم لبنانيون وموثوقون، ومن عناصر «القاعدة» وألقابهم «فهد وثامر وعدنان وفواز وبسام». وانتهى هذا اليوم هكذا.
في اليوم التالي، خرج جميل وخالد بعد تناول الفطور حوالى الثانية عشرة ظهراً، وهو اليوم الثاني لنا في لبنان، أي في 2/2/2005. رجعوا ليلاً متأخّرين حوالى الواحدة بعد منتصف الليل. لم أتكلم معهما. في صباح اليوم الثالث، أي في 3/2/2005، خرجت مع جميل بينما بقي أبو عدس وخالد في الشقة. استقللنا سيارة تاكسي من الضاحية باتجاه عين المريسة. وصلنا حوالى الواحدة ظهراً، تمشّينا من قرب مطعم الطازج شرقاً مارّين بمطعم ماكدونالدز، قرب مسجد عين المريسة، حيث أصبح ماكدونالدز على يسارنا. صعدنا في طريق طلعة. على اليسار هناك شركة تأجير سيارات في آخر الطريق. انعطفنا يساراً وسرنا في الطريق باتجاه فندق هوليداي إن، وبوصولنا إلى التقاطع انعطفنا يساراً حيث أصبحت الطريق نزولاً، شاهدت الفينيسيا على يساري وأمامي وبمستوى منخفض منظر الشاطئ حيث نادي يخوت وإلى يساره السان جورج.
كان جميل يشير لي إلى الأماكن، ويسمّي لي العناوين. وصلنا إلى أمام السان جورج حيث أعلمني جميل أنّ الموكب يمرّ إجبارياً أمام السان جورج، وأنّ أفضل نقطة لتنفيذ العملية هي في بناية ملاصقة للسان جورج للجهة اليمنى من الطريق؛ تشاورنا حول هذه النقطة وأعلمني جميل أن هناك نقطة أخرى هي قرب مكتب الرئيس الحريري يمكن أن تكون صالحة لتنفيذ عملية التفجير، علماً بأننا قرب السان جورج لم نتوقف لوقت طويل، بل كنا نتوقف للحظة ومن ثم نتابع السير ونتوقف لعدم إثارة أية شبهة.
بوصولنا إلى قرب صيدلية في عين المريسة، استقللنا سيارة تاكسي إلى محلة عائشة بكار أو فردان على ما أذكر. وهناك ترجّلنا قبل المكتب على تقاطع للطريق واتجهنا نزولاً. شاهدت في النزول سلسلة مطاعم لجهة اليسار، وهناك بنك أيضاً لجهة اليسار، ومحل «أديداس» ومحلات أزياء نسائية للجهة اليمنى. وصلنا إلى تقاطع طرق قرب فندق «هوليداي إن» ومقابله يوجد على الزاوية الأخرى بناء قديم تحيط به أشجار كثيرة وصورة كبيرة للرئيس الحريري في محيط المبنى. سرنا على الرصيف المقابل لهذا المبنى الذي هو مكتب الرئيس.
لم نتوقف، بل تابعنا السير ونحن نراقب ونرصد الحركة. شاهدت أنا من خلال البوابة المفتوحة الحاجز المتحرك للمدخل، وفي الداخل سيارات عادية متوقفة. لم يكن هناك من مجال لوضع الشاحنة وتركيزها في ذلك الشارع لأنها ستثير الشبهات في حال توقفها هناك.
صرفنا النظر عن هذا الاحتمال واستقللنا سيارة تاكسي باتجاه الضاحية. في هذه الأثناء، كان جميل يتلقى اتصالات على هاتفه الخلوي من المراقبين، على ما أعتقد. وصلنا الشقة مساءً؛ تحادثت مع جميل عن نتيجة المراقبة على الأرض التي قمنا بها، ثم نمنا.
وفي اليوم التالي، أي 4/2/2005، خرج خالد وجميل ورجعا مساءً. أعلمني جميل أن هناك سيارة مناسبة في طرابلس من نوع بيك آب كبيرة لون أبيض ثمنها حوالى سبعة آلاف دولار أميركي يقوم أحد معارفه بتخليص أمرها وشرائها. وأن البضاعة، أي المتفجرات، قد وصلت إلى لبنان من سوريا ومصدرها العراق، وهي من نوع TNT وحبال Cortex وعشرة صواعق كهربائية، وهي الآن في مكان آمن، لم يطلعني عليه.
وفي هذه الليلة، شعرت بأنّ خالد الطه يتصرّف على غير عادته، فكان صامتاً ولافتاً للنظر. فهو عادة يمازح ويظل مبتسماً. خلدنا للنوم وكنت أنام مع جميل في غرفة، وخالد وأبو عدس في الغرفة الأخرى.
في صباح اليوم التالي، أي 5/2/2005، لا أذكر هذا النهار جيداً، أعتقد أن جميل تلقى اتصالاً من جماعته المكلفين شراء السيارة، وأنّ السيارة قد سُوّي أمرها بسبعة آلاف وخمسمئة دولار أميركي. وحسب ما أخبرني بأنه اشتراها بطريقة طبيعية وأنه سوف يغادر مع خالد لحوالى يومين لتجهيز السيارة وإعدادها بالمتفجرات، وقد زوّدني برقم هاتفه الذي لا أذكره، على أن اتّصل به فقط في الحالات الطارئة القصوى، وغادر.
بقيت مع أبو عدس في الشقة ليومين لم نخرج منها ولم يدخل أحد إلينا. عاد خالد وجميل في 9/2/2005، أعلمني جميل أن الشاحنة قد جُهّزت وأن المتفجرات وُضّبت فيها بشكل موجّه، وقد جهّزت أيضاً الكبسة التي تقوم بدور الصاعق لعملية التفجير. وقد حضر جميل وخالد ظهراً، وأعلمني [جميل] أيضاً أن المهمة الحسّاسة الآن هي لشباب المراقبة والرصد. وكان لا يزال يتلقى الاتصالات، علماً بأنه كان يطفئ رقمه حوالى منتصف الليل. وعندما كان يحضر إلى المنزل ليلاً كان يطفئ رقمه في الشارع قبل أن يصعد إلى الشقة، وإذا ما كان في الشقة كان يخرج ليلاً ويطفئ الخط حتى لا تتبيّن حركة الهاتف الجغرافية.
في اليوم العاشر خرجت مع جميل وذهبنا إلى محلة السان جورج لتفقّد المكان. وصلنا بالتاكسي إلى قبل السان جورج أيضاً، قرب مسجد عين المريسة، وسرنا في الطريق نفسه. مررنا قرب مدخل السان جورج ولم نشاهد أية حركة مريبة أو نقاط حراسة أو دوريات. عدنا إلى الشقّة مساءً، تحادثنا عما جرى في مراقبتنا لمحلة السان جورج واتفقنا على أن النقطة بعد مدخل السان جورج أمام البناية الملاصقة، أستطيع دلالتكم إليها، إنها النقطة النهائية التي سوف تركن فيها الشاحنة وبداخلها أبو عدس لتنفيذ عملية التفجير لدى مرور الموكب في الأيام الباقية من قبل 14/2/2005، أي يوم تنفيذ العملية.
كانت متابعة عمليات الرصد والمراقبة هي الناشطة، كما كنا نناقش خطة الانسحاب بعد التنفيذ. وفي 13/2/2005 خرج جميل واصطحب أبو عدس معه. بقيت مع خالد في الشقة، حيث أراه سيارة البيك آب والمكان الذي يجب أن تنفّذ العملية فيه. عادا إلى الشقة مساءً وكان أبو عدس مرتاحاً ومتشجعاً جداً لتنفيذ العملية، حيث تحادثنا أنا وجميل وخالد، بينما دخل أبو عدس إلى الغرفة الأخرى للصلاة والتعبّد. تحادثنا نحن الثلاثة أنا وجميل وخالد عن خطة الانسحاب وكانت كالآتي: خروج مجموعة الرصد والمراقبة وننسحب نحن باتجاه الجامعة الأميركية ـــ الباب البحري. خلدنا إلى النوم. استيقظنا فجراً للصلاة، ثم عدنا إلى النوم.
استيقظنا في العاشرة. خرج أبو عدس بمفرده، ودّعنا وتعانقنا، بكى خالد وبعد حوالى نصف ساعة خرجنا نحن الثلاثة جميل وأنا وخالد بعد أن احتفظ جميل بهوية أبو عدس المزورة السورية؛ عمل أحدهم على قيادة «البيك آب» وأبو عدس بجانبه، وهو من فريق الرصد لا أعرف مَن هو. بعد خروجنا من الشقة، استقللنا تاكسي باتجاه عين المريسة، ترجلنا قرب جامع عين المريسة، توقفنا على الكورنيش مقابل الجامع وكانت الساعة حوالى الثانية عشرة ظهراً، حيث توقف أبو عدس بالسيارة وانتظر مرور الموكب. ولما مرّ الموكب، حصل الانفجار، بعد أن فجّر أبو عدس نفسه بالموكب.

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ملاحظات المحقّقين
يورد محضر التحقيق مع الموقوفين وصفاً للمعتقلين كالآتي:
أشكال الموقوفين:

ملاحظة: الموقوف حسن النبعة: الطول 165 سنتم، حنطي البشرة، أسود العينين، أسود الشعر، ذو شارب، ملتح كثيراً، عادي الأنف والفم.

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ملاحظة: الموقوف طارق الناصر: الطول 175 سنتم، أبيض البشرة، كستنائي الشعر، حليق الذقن والشارب، عسليّ العينين، عادي الأنف، والفم تام.

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ملاحظة: أشكال الموقوف مالك النبعة: الطول 168 سنتم، حنطي البشرة، عسلي العينين، أسود الشعر، ذو شارب، ملتحٍ، عادي الأنف والفم.

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ملاحظة: أشكال الموقوف عامر الحلاق: الطول 175 سنتم، أبيض البشرة، أسود العينين، أسود الشعر، أجلح قليلاً، ذو شارب، ملتحٍ، عادي الأنف والفم.

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ملاحظة: أشكال الموقوف هاني الشنطي: الطول 175 سنتم، أبيض البشرة، كستنائي الشعر، عسليّ العينين، ملتحٍ، ذو شارب خفيف، عاديّ الأنف والفم.

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ملاحظة: أشكال الموقوف فيصل أكبر: الطول 170 سنتم، أسمر البشرة، أسود الشعر، أجلح، عسليّ العينين، ملتحٍ، ذو شارب، آثار عملية جراحية في بطنه.

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من القرار الاتّهامي لشبكة الـ13

(…) وتبين أنه تمهيداً وتحضيراً لقيام هذه المجموعة بأعمال إرهابية في لبنان بعد أن عمدت إلى إنشاء خلاياها بداخله وقيامها بتكفير إحدى الطوائف اللبنانية، حضر المدعو جميل إلى بيروت حيث قام بشراء كميات من الأسلحة الرشاشة والقنابل اليدوية وصواريخ اللاو والمسدسات الحربية، إضافة إلى بعض العتاد والذخيرة. ووضّب هذه الأسلحة ضمن حقائب كبيرة أودعها في منزل المدّعى عليه مالك نبعة موقتاً ليقوم بنقلها إلى شقة في محلة الطريق الجديدة لاحقاً استأجرها المدعى عليه هاني الشنطي بتاريخ 25/5/2005 باسم وهمي محمد صالح، بعد أن تسلّم هذه الحقائب من مالك نبعة على عدة دفعات بحيث كان يتم التسيلم والتسلم قرب مسجد الخاشقجي في بيروت.
وتبين أنه خلال أوائل شهر كانون الأول 2005، بدأ أفراد هذه المجموعة بالتوافد تباعاً من سوريا إلى مدينة بيروت، بحيث حضر بداية طبيبها المدّعى عليه طارق رجاء الناصر، وهو جراح في الأعصاب تحت اسم مستعار عبد السلام عبد الوهاب، وأقام في شقّة مستأجرة في محلة الرملة البيضاء بتاريخ 15/12/2005، بناية الشاطئ الذهبي معدّة لاستقبال أفراد المجموعة. وقد انضم إليه لاحقاً كل من المدعى عليهما حسن نبعة وفيصل أكبر اللذين انتقلا لاحقاً إلى شقة أخرى واقعة في محلة عين الرمانة استأجرها هاني الشنطي باسم مزوّر هو محمد الصفدي، لينضم إليهما كل من المدعى عليهما خالد طه وبلال زعرورة. وكانت بدلات إيجار هذه الشقة وتلك التي استأجرها المدعى عليه براء فؤاد يدفعها المدعو جميل.
وتبين أنه من خلال متابعة قضية اختفاء أحمد أبو عدس قبل شهر من ظهوره على شاشات التلفزة وتبنيه لعملية اغتيال الرئيس الشهيد الحريري، جرى تعميم بلاغات تحرٍّ بحق المدعى عليه خالد مدحت طه لارتباط اسمه بعملية اختفاء أبو عدس، وبحق المدعى عليه هاني الشنطي لعلاقته الوثيقة بطه بعد تواريه عن الأنظار بناءً على طلب المدعو جميل، كما مراقبة الاتصالات الهاتفية إلى رقم هاتف الشنطي وهو 653***/03 بنوع خاص، خلال فترة دخول طه إلى لبنان في 15/1/2005 واختفاء أبو عدس بتاريخ 16/1/2005. وتبين حصول اتصالين صادرين عن الرقم المذكور إلى الرقم 722***/07 العائد للمدعو عبد الله الحلاق والد المدعى عليه عامر الحلاق المعروف عنه ميوله الدينية المتطرفة، فجرى توقيفه بتاريخ 30/12/2006 الذي بالتحقيق معه اعترف بانتمائه إلى تنظيم القاعدة عن طريق هاني الشنطي، موضحاً بأنه بعدما لمس توجّههم وتخطيطهم للقيام بأعمال إرهابية في لبنان، حاول الانسحاب من التنظيم لكنه فشل في ذلك. كما اعترف باشتراكه مع المدعى عليه الشنطي بتخبئته الأسلحة داخل إحدى الشقق. فجرى توقيف الشنطي وتوقيف المدعى عليه فيصل أكبر أثناء محاولته الدخول إلى شقة في عين الرمانة، ومصادرة جهاز خلوي وعدد من بطاقات التليكارت. وقد ترك الجهازان مفتوحين لتلقي اتصالات من بعض المدعى عليهم القادمين من سوريا، مما سهل تحديد مكان صدور هذه الاتصالات، أي من الهواتف العمومية، وتوقيفهم على إثر ذلك، وهم: حسن نبعة وطارق رجاء الناصر ومحمد أحمد توجه، وهو طالب جامعي في كلية الهندسة الكهربائية في سوريا، وقد عثر بحوزته على بطاقة هوية وإجازة سوق سوريتين مزورتين، وهو يعمل ناطوراً في البناء الذي يقطن فيه هاني الشنطي للاشتباه بعلاقته بتخبئة الأسلحة المضبوطة.
وتبين أن بعض المدعى عليهم تمكن من الفرار إلى داخل مخيم عين الحلوة، من بينهم خالد مدحت طه وبلال يونس زعرور وسليم محمد حليمة وجهاد أسعد ضاهر، فيما عثر على بطاقات باقي المدعى عليهم داخل الشقق التي تمت مداهمتها. كما تمت مصادرة الحقائب المليئة بالأسلحة الرشاشة والقنابل اليدوية وصواريخ اللاو وغيرها من المستندات والوثائق المزورة والأجهزة اللاسلكية والأقراص المدمجة وجهازي كومبيوتر وذخائر وأربعة وعشرين شاحناً كهربائياً و 578 قطعة معدنية إلكترونية وساعة مع منبه Bony Sony ومنبه صغير.

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ردّ من هاني الشنطي

جاءنا من الموقوف هاني الشنطي الردّ الآتي، ننشره حرفياً بعد حذف بعض العبارات لأسباب قانونية:

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«في زمن المهزومين داخل أنفسهم، حيث يستقبَل الصهيوني بنور الضيافة ممّن وجبت عليه تحية الأعداء بالنار، ويكرم جون بولتون ممن لطخوا جبينهم بالعار، فلا عجب أن تَلقى في السجن مَن فرش للأميركي ورود الهزيمة بعزم صائب بتّار.
بعد عرضكم مسلسل عملية اغتيال مزعومة، وما رافقها من تحقيقات هدفت تشويه السمعة، تيقّنت أن وطن الأرز انتقل من جمهورية البعث إلى ساحة العبث بالكرامات…
إنّ من يقرأ الاستنطاقات لا يسعه إلا رسم الصورة السوداء التي أرادها كرزايات زمن الرويبضة، حيث أشرفهم … وأبصرهم أعمى. والعدل يقضي أن تعطونا فسحة وقت، وأن تحترموا المهل اللازمة، مع مراعاة ظروفنا المكانيّة والزمانية، فنحن في أقبية رومية، لا يصلنا ما يكتب إلا عبر زيارات الأقارب. وبعدما أوقفها الجنجويد، لن نستطيع الإضاءة على الشوائب: ثم إنّ نشركم الحرفيّ هو لعب بأمن المقاومة العراقية، وذلك عمل لا يليق لأنه تكملة لما ابتغاه أذناب أميركا من هذا التحقيق. فإلى جانب ذكر أسماء لمقاومين ما زالوا أحياء وتقنيات تشفير أرقام الهواتف، فإن الأمكنة التفصيلية التي ذكرت تشكل تهديداً لا يخفى على أحد. ثم إن الحصافة تحتم عليكم الإضاءة على المخالفات والخلفية التي حتمت «غزوة…» داخل رومية:مشهد عام لسجن رومية (أرشيف – وائل اللادقي)
في الخلفية: صدرت توصية من [رئيس فرع المعلومات المقدّم] وسام الحسن لإدارة سجن رومية بنقل شبكة دعم المقاومة العراقية لمبنى عملاء لحد. استحصل [مدير عام قوى الأمن الداخلي] أشرف ريفي على مساعدات أميركية لمكافحة الإرهاب (على أساس أن اليانكيين هم حمائم سلم)، كان لا بد من رد الحسنة بعشرة أمثالها! دخلت بقايا الميليشيات (التي اندمجت في الدولة وصارت فهوداً) فأثخنت في المقاومين الجراح، وأذاقتهم من اليأس مرّه، فجُرْح العقيدة واحتقار الدين لن يندمل إلى ما شاء الله. ولأننا ذوو عزيمة لا تلين، وإيماننا من حديد، فقد جاؤونا بحدّاد لا يحمل في سندانه غير الحقد والضغينة، فالهدف واضح: ضعوا المقاومين فرادى في غرف اللحديّين، دعوهم يقتلون (فهم مضربون عن الطعام منذ أسابيع) ليدفع الأميركي ديّة مقاومتهم إلى جهاز دحلان فرع لبنان…
أما التبرير فهو بسيط: «هؤلاء الزعران حاولوا الفرار (عيب يا «سفير»، فنحن قوم يهابنا الموت) وافتهم المنية أثناء اشتباك مع المساجين».
في الشكل: تلاحظون أن الأسئلة الإيحائية، كانت في الحقيقة أجوبة دعائية رخيصة، هدفها إرماء في ذهن العامّة أنّ المقاومين هم أعداء الحضارة (حضارة الكازينو والنابالم) وكارهو الحياة، ثقافتهم تجنح للموت، لباسهم فضفاض غريب، ذقونهم طويلة (فوق المستوى فإذا كان مستوى الذقن يقاس عندكم بالمتر يا سبع، فما خطبكم في المستوى المنحط للتعذيب الذي أجراه جلاوزتكم، وتترتب عليه مسؤولية قانونية بما حكم)، لا يفهمون من لغة الجدل إلا تكفير الآخر، ومن ثم إلغاؤه، وفي الإلغاء قتل، حتى إن قتلهم يتجلى في أبشع صورة مؤثرة في النفس، ألا وهو الذبح! فانظر مثلاً إلى هذا السؤال:
«بالاطلاع على مضمون جهاز الكومبيوتر الخاص بك، وبعد تمكن الفريق الفني في مركزنا من استخراج الملفات والبيانات المحفوظة فيه، والمحمي بعض منها بشيفرات، حيث تبين وجود أفلام عن أعمال الذبح وعمليات تفجير وخطب تكفيرية ووصايا لشهداء لندن وموسوعات عن الأسلحة والمتفجرات والتحقيقات الأمنية وتقنيات التفجير عن بعد، بالإضافة لأفلام قمت أنت بعمل مونتاج لها…».
فالضابط الفذ يزعم أن المعلومات مشفرة، وقد استطاع جهازهم الفني فك تشفيرها! حسناً، أنا سأسلّم بصحة الواقعة، وأنصح الجهاز الكفوء بمباشرة تعلّم تقنيات التشفير وفكها منذ الآن، حتى إذا ما تمت مسائلته علناً في المحكمة، وخانته المعرفة وجب علينا التساؤل: هل أُرسِلت البيانات المشفرة التي تحوي بمجملها البنية الإدارية والمالية للمقاومة العراقية للأميركان لفك شيفرتها؟ وكيف تثبتوا من عدم العبث بالمعلومات تلك من قبل اليانكي؟ ثم ألا تقضي المهنية أن أسأل عمّا تحوي المعلومات لأجيب على سجيّتي. الحاصل أنّ المحقق الفذّ كان يسأل جواباً، وما عليّ إلا التناغم مع إيحاءاته بعد التعرّض للتعذيب الشديد! والمؤلم في الأمر، أن معاملة السجناء كالدواب، وتعلّم حضارة الأميركي التي رأيناها جلياً في أبو غريب، أصبحت ناموساً لدى الأجهزة الأمنية، يتبعها محقق أمني ويصادق عليها قاضٍ أجير! فأي امرؤ يملك طاقة تحمّل داخلية، ونقصاً في الكمون، فاذا ما عنفته وكسرت مقاومته الداخلية، نطق بما اشتهى هوى المحقّق!
فالمحقق الخبيث يسأل عن «سبب الخلاف مع عامر حلاق» ليأتي الجواب «انه خلاف عقائدي وذلك حول تكفيري لبعض مذاهب الشيعة والأديان الأخرى، بينما كانا هما ضد مبدإي هذا»!! أما التشويه الرخيص فيتمثل عبر تجريدي من شخصيتي العلمية عبر إيراد أنني «بايعت الشيخ راشد المقنع»! ولاحقاً ذكر أنّ مالك نبعة (تلميذ البروفيه) هو الذي جنّدني (أنا المهندس).
الحاصل في الإفادة أن شعبة المعلومات لقّنت محقّقيها فيلم «الإرهاب والكباب»، فعرفوا جلياً كيف يشوّهون صورة الإسلام السياسي، ليرسموا نمطاً أسود يُطبع في الذهن وعليه تتأسس أحكام جاهزة.
فالثابت في التحقيق، محاولة إلصاق خليتنا بالزرقاوي لأن الرجل في ذمة الله، ولكن أيضاً لأن الرجل بعث بنص مكتوب ينفي فيه عملية الاغتيال. وكأني بهذا الإيحاء الخبيث، محاولة تأكيد، عن طريق نفي النفي!
أخيراً حضرة الجريدة الغراء، لقد أصبح واضحاً أن محاكمتنا بدأت في الصحافة قبل أن تبدأ في قصور العدل… لكن السؤال يبقى: هل علي تقديم طلبات إخلاء السبيل لدى بريدكم المضمون؟

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ردّ من خضر نبعة

جاءنا من خضر نبعة، شقيق الموقوف حسن نبعة، الردّ الآتي ننشره حرفياً بعد حذف بعض العبارات لأسباب قانونية:

***
«إنّ الخبر عن أخي «حسن نبعة» وإن كان حماه من عملية قتل مبرمج، إلا أنه رماه بسهام لا تخلو من مكر. فصحيفتكم تحاول منذ البدء تسليط الأضواء على آل نبعة لإحراقهم قضائياً، ذلك أن قدرتنا على «كسر الأضواء» لا تتعدى اليراعة… وأذكّركم بأنني بعثت لكم في آذار من عام 2007 رداً على تسريبات مخابراتية نشرت، تحديتكم فيه بإجراء تحقيق مهني عن فتح الإسلام، حتى قبل أن يذيع صيت هذا التنظيم ويتحوّل البلد ملعباً للمخابرات. وضنّاً بصدقيتكم أحب أن أسأل: هل تملكون الجرأة الأدبية على نشر الرسالة أم علي الدفاع عن أخي عبر نشرها في صحف أخرى؟ لقد غدوت في بلد لا أرى غير مزابل وديوك… وقبضايات بالإيجار!
الأسبوع الماضي «استضافني» الأمن في «ليلة القدر»، لأن المخابرات لا تعمل بلا حرارة، حرارة الإيمان طبعاً، ثم «عايدوا» أهلي عبر استضافة أخي الأصغر (فزيارة الأهل في العيد من باب وصل الأرحام)، فماذا تبغي صحيفتكم الكريمة؟ (معمول من أبي). دعوني أقول لكم قناعتي! إن العصابات الإجرامية تسرق السيارات، وبعد مرور زمن طويل تعمد إلى تفخيخها… أما في البلاد المتخلفة، فإنّ الأجهزة «تسرق» أناساً لتتأكّد أنّ لا ظهر لهم يحميهم، ومن ثم تقدّمهم «كبش فداء» لمستهلك لا يرى بالعقل، لأنّ أضواء الصحافة تعميه.
الحاصل أنّ «آل نبعة» هم المستهدفون لضعف شوكتهم، ولكونهم علقوا بين فريق «غبي» لا يعبأ من معانقة الدب طلباً للدفء وفريق «وضيع» لا يحترم ظلم الغير، لأن جهله لم يسمح له بقراءة حركة التاريخ.
أخيراً، ومن باب الفضول أسأل: إلامَ ترمون في ما رميتم؟»

[في حلقة الغد: ماذا بقي لفيصل أكبر ليقوله وأيّة مفاجأة سيحملها للمحقّق؟]

عدد الثلاثاء ١٦ تشرين الأول

October 16th, 2007, 4:28 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

The damage that will be done to Israel will be significant from the Israeli perspective. No one is claiming that Israel doesn’t enjoy air superiority, but to think that a war with Syria is going to be a walk in the park is nonsense. Israel can and will cause a lot of destruction in Syria, but it will come at a price. The question is: is Israel willing to pay that price? You think they are, but I doubt it very much, which is why I actually do not believe that Israel is going to launch a war against Syria.

You and I both know that Syria is not going to start a war with Israel and I hope you realize that there is no way Israel is going to attack Iran. The question is whether the US will attack Iran, which is a valid issue many people are discussing and analyzing. I believe that it is highly unlikely the US will open up another front in Iran, but I could be wrong. I simply see that the devastating consequences of such a war will deter the US from launching such a campaign. As for Bush needing to show that all diplomatic options have been exhausted, he can claim that at anytime, just as he did in Iraq. Diplomatic options were not exhausted there, and in fact Iraq had fully complied with all UN resolutions, but it didn’t matter, as Bush merely declared what he wished and everyone followed.

October 16th, 2007, 4:31 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

Fact: Israel attacked Syria and was not afraid of Syrian or Iranian retaliation.

One month ago you would have been sure Israel would not attack Syria. You are wrong and still are wrong.

October 16th, 2007, 4:45 pm

 

ausamaa said:

ANOTHERDENIALGUY

If one Hizbullah Brigade sent Israelies, IDF, IAF, Navy, Cabinet and population, into a state of Hallucination – among the other disorders that are developing-, then what damage could (Hizbullah’s supplier, mentor and tool in your vocabulary)Syria do? Keeping in mind that Syrian skies are not as friendly to the Israeli Air Force as the Lebanese unprotected skies are!

Just imagin….

October 16th, 2007, 4:54 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

Please don’t insult our intelligence. You know very well that this Israeli “raid”, whatever it hit, was calculated and Israel knew that it would not lead to a Syrian response. It was not a launch of an all out war, but rather a limited, calculated operation that Israel knew would not result in a Syrian military response.

If Israel is no concerned at all with the consequences of war, then why not initiate an all-out attack on Syria.

October 16th, 2007, 5:27 pm

 

EHSANI2 said:

It is easier for Hizbullah to take on the Israeli army than it is for Syria. HA does not report to the head of State. Were HA to have been the Lebanese army who had the President of the country as its chief commanding officer, its ability to fight would have been severely curtailed.

Syria sure has more missiles than Hizbullah. But it has a significantly higher risk of being retaliated against than a militia operating outside of the main responsibilities of the government and the Presidential palace.

This argument about whether Syria has the military might or not is rather useless. The fact is that the country’s military capabilities pale in comparison to its stated enemy. This is a fact that is not going away.

We can feel good about ourselves stating that we have this or that capability to inflict damage. The fact is, however, that the country’s leadership will not dare enter into a military confrontation of any kind. During a recent interview, Bashar himself admitted that he will not respond militarily because that would be playing into Israel’s agenda.

With the military strategic balance so tilted in Israel’s favor, the fact is that Syria can hardly back up its military capabilities with any action on the ground.

October 16th, 2007, 5:32 pm

 

Nour said:

EHSANI2,

You’re right. Syria will not enter into a military confrontation with Israel by its own choosing. But the discussion revolved around whether Israel would launch a war against Syria. In that case, Syria will have no choice but to engage militarily, and Israel would definitely be targeted with the missiles Syria has.

Nobody would argue that Israel enjoys vast military superiority over Syria, and that Israel would no doubt cause severe destruction across Syria. But this destruction will come at a price for Israel, and the question is “is Israel willing to pay that price?”

October 16th, 2007, 5:35 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

You mischarecterize the argument. We were discussing what would happen if Israel or the US attacked Iran?

I was saying that Syria will not attack Israel. I guess we both agree.

October 16th, 2007, 5:48 pm

 

EHSANI2 said:

Israel flew over the Presidential Palace in Latakia while the President was there during the summer of 2006.

Supposedly, it also flew and dropped ammunition on whatever it was in early September.

Over two years ago, it also attacked a small military base outside Damascus.

In none of the three incidents above, did Syria respond militarily.

Clearly, none of these incidents presented an existential risk for Bashar. Will he respond if the next attack presented an existential risk? Only if he is sure that his rule itself is targeted, will he contemplate such a fateful act.

October 16th, 2007, 5:52 pm

 

Frank al Irlandi said:

Oh well

I guess nobody read my earlier post.

October 16th, 2007, 6:03 pm

 

SimoHurtta said:

Is the Israeli army still what it used to be? The discipline level of Israeli elite troops is rather “strange” as the following article from today describes: Paratrooper uprising following incarceration. Are these spoiled kids fit for a real guerilla war against better equipped forces as the Palestinian children equipped with stones?

October 16th, 2007, 6:04 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Sim,

You ask an excellent question.

Why don’t you come to our region and and find out? Bring along more of your antisemite friends and fight alongside the Syrians or Hizballah.

October 16th, 2007, 6:15 pm

 

Nour said:

EHSANI2,

I’m not arguing that the Syrian regime is not interested in preserving itself. But I think to a certain degree, all regimes in the world are interested in preserving themselves, including the US regime. However, the difference is that Syria is a weak country and it has to weigh its actions very carefully, as it cannot match up to Israeli or US military might. If Syria is to engage in a war with Israel much destruction would be caused to Syria, and we all know that. So the question then becomes, at what point can Syria afford to engage militarily, weighing the costs and benefits? In my opinion if there is an all out war, such as the case in 1973 and 1967, this is the only situation in which Syria would be willing to enter into a direct military confrontation, as it would feel that the regime is under threat and the country is about to suffer much destruction anyway.

October 16th, 2007, 6:16 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

I don’t get it. So now if you question Israel’s military might, you’re an anti-semite?

October 16th, 2007, 6:18 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

No, Sim is an antisemite because of the many other reasons we already discussed.

In this particular case he is just moronic:
1) The article is in an Israeli newspaper proving how robust freedom of press in Israel
2) The soldiers showed a strong solidarity towards each other proving how strong the unit spirit is in the IDF
3) The soldiers did not follow orders blindly and were not afraid to address their commanders when they thought something bad was done. This show that the IDF is truly a citizen army in which people do not follow orders automatically.
4) After a discussion with their commanders the soldiers returned to duty.

So, Sim has just shown how formidable and democratic Israel and the IDF are. You might say therefore that he is a philosemite. I think he is just a bad antisemite.

October 16th, 2007, 6:56 pm

 

dan said:

AIG

You state that Bush will have to show that he as exhausted all diplomatic options prior to attacking Iran, but seem not to understand that this requires that the US actually involve itself in broad-spectrum diplomatic contacts with Iran.

Insofar as the Bush administration cannot bring itself to do this, as it conflicts with the broader maximalist objective of leveraging regime change in Teheran, then, given the increasingly limited lifespan of the Bush administration, Bush will be unable to fulfill this precondition.

The US has had ample opportunities to actually talk directly to Teheran since 2003 – the Iranians have made repeated offers to enter discussions which the Bush administration has simply rebuffed. More interestingly, the Bush administration could have become involved with the EU-3 track during the suspension/additional safeguards and no-notice inspection period of 2004-05, but neglected to do so, thereby guaranteeing failure.

October 16th, 2007, 7:00 pm

 

Alex said:

With all the talk about the clear superiority of Israel, and with the wonderful memories that Israelis have of successful special operations or one day battles against the Syrians or other Arabs, the fact remains that since 1967 Israel was not able to win any war in Syria’s environment.

For example, Israel’s two “successful” invasions of Lebanon resulted twice in a net-gain for Syria in Lebanon, and in the middle east in general. The glorious day when Israel shot down dozens of old Syrian MIG fighters in 1982 counted for nothing when a year later Hafez Assad was the strong man of the Middle East again.

Similarly, with all of Israel’s bullying … invading Lebanon again last year, flying over the president’s house in Latakia, hitting a small buildin in Deri Ezzore last month (!?!) … the net result is that Syria, again, holds the key to solutions of all the region’s conflicts… Look at the peace conference’s chances of success and failure … Syria affects those as much as Israel or the United States itself.

Doing business in a tough neighborhood like the middle east requires a balance between using your brain and using your muscles. Syria learned to use its brain quite successfully.

Israel is still mostly relying on threatening and bullying the neighbors.

The other “Moderate Arabs” have all the latest advanced weapons that the United States sold them (for triple the market price) … Nevertheless, they are mostly ineffective.

October 16th, 2007, 7:09 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Dan,

Yes, the concept of “exaustive diplomatic efforts” is vague and what it entails exactly is not clear. All Bush has to do is be in the ball park of what most Americans view as reasonable diplomatic efforts. The more the Iranians act in bad faith, the easier it will be for Bush. And the fact that this time around France and most of Europe is with the US, will make it credible to the American public that diplomacy may have run its course. There will always be voices saying that more could have been done diplomatically, but that is to be expected.

In the end, both of us don’t want war. But you believe that the ayatollahs are negotiating in good faith and really want to find a compromise both sides can live with. I am highly skeptical of that and believe that the ayatollahs want to develop a nuclear bomb and will do whatever it takes. I may be wrong but so may you.

October 16th, 2007, 7:15 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Alex,

Not that the Asads are stupid, but their main quality is their ruthlessness. They are like mafia bosses willing to kill in order to advance their goals. Asad retains his power by oppressing his people and exporting instability to neigboring countries.

Maybe Israel should really arm the Kurds and Druze in Syria and fund a civil war by them against Asad? It could be in Israel’s interest but it is just something Israel will not do. Maybe Israel and Saudi should fund and arm the Muslim brotherhood just like Asad funds Hizballah and Fatah al Islam? The more I hear your sad excuses the more I am inclined to support such measures.

Oh, and in 1973 Israel was nearing Damscus when the Soviet Union threatened with a nuclear war to stop the Israeli advance. This won’t happen again.

October 16th, 2007, 7:23 pm

 

Alex said:

AIG,

Sim is not a bad antisemite, YOU are a bad Jew.

Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house.

Stop wrapping your violent aggressive and selfish attitudes with beautiful words like “Democracy”.

Anyone who tried to tell you that you are wrong, you call him an antisemite.

If an intelligent Israeli journalist in Haaretz says something sensible and peaceful, you and Akbar try to portray him as a 6% minority whose opinion does not count. If an American analyst promotes the idea of dialogue with Syria Akbar calls him clueless.

And of course the only thing you are understanding from my comment here is: “This is all coming from a Syrian regime tool … that explains it”

By discrediting anyone who criticizes yo, you have lost the ability to listen to those who are explaining to you that you are mostly an advocate of violence and mass murder for your own selfish reasons… a fake sense of security and a reinforcement for your superiority complex.

October 16th, 2007, 7:24 pm

 

Alex said:

Oh, and in 1973 Israel was nearing Damscus when the Soviet Union threatened with a nuclear war to stop the Israeli advance. This won’t happen again.

You are dreaming again.

Kissinger visited Damascus 21 times those days. Read his book and you will understand what was going on in 73.

October 16th, 2007, 7:26 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Alex,

I would be happy to hear any fair and balanced criticism and respond. Israel is an open society and we value criticism. It is the only way forward.

Where did I advocate violence and mass murder?

And I really find it rich that a person that cannot bring himself to criticize Bashar for wahtever reason is lecturing me on criticism.

Sim is a vile antisemite. He has an irrational hatered of Jews. It is a sad condition. He can say what he wants but I will expose him for what he is. Not everybody that criticizes me or Israel is an antisemite. I don’t think Nour or you are antisemites. But Sim definitely is.

If you are not a tool of the regime I just cannot understand why you are content with licking Bashar’s boots for the next fifty years. No reasonable person not associated with the regime would have such a peculiar position.

October 16th, 2007, 7:41 pm

 

Observer said:

Here is some reading for our comment readers and especially for the “chosen people” among us
The Iraqi Genocide
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

Why has not the Turkish parliament given tit for tat and passed a resolution condemning the Iraqi Genocide?

As a result of Bush’s invasion of Iraq, more than one million Iraqis have died, and several millions are displaced persons. The Iraqi death toll and the millions of uprooted Iraqis match the Armenian deaths and deportations. If one is a genocide, so is the other.

It is true that most of the Iraqi deaths have resulted from Iraqis killing one another. But it was Bush’s destruction of the secular Iraqi state that unleashed the sectarian strife.

Moreover, American troops in Iraq have killed more civilians than insurgents. The US military in Iraq has fallen for every bit of disinformation fed to it by Al Qaeda personnel posing as “informants” and by Sunnis setting up Shi’ites and Shi’ites setting up Sunnis. As a result, American bombs and missiles have blown up weddings, funerals, kids playing soccer, and people shopping in bazaars and sleeping in their homes.

Not to be outdone, Bush’s private Waffen SS known as Blackwater Security has taken to gunning Iraqi civilians down in the streets. How do Blackwater and Custer Battles killers escape the “unlawful combatant” designation?

One can only marvel at the insouciance of the US Congress to the current Iraqi Genocide while condemning Turkey for one that happened 90 years ago.

People seldom see the beam in their own eye, only the mote in the eyes of others. Every member of the Bush Regime is busily at work denouncing Iran for causing instability in the Middle East.

Meanwhile, the US has invaded two countries, throwing them into total chaos, while beating the drums for war with Iran and conspiring with Israel to invade Lebanon and to attack Syria.

The indisputable facts are that the US and Israel have attacked four Middle East countries and are determined to attack a fifth. Yet, it is peaceful Iran, at war with no one, that Bush and Israel blame for causing instability in the Middle East.

Not content with its many wars in the Middle East, the Bush Regime is sponsoring wars in Africa and is setting up an African Command. The US government has been bombing and attacking other countries ever since the cold war ended. Instead of peace, the gang in Washington DC chose war.

Other than the Israel Lobby, the greatest supporters of Bush’s wars are Christian evangelicals, specifically the “rapture evangelicals” and the “Christian Zionists.”

I remember when Christianity was about saving one’s soul. Today it is about bringing on Armageddon. While the various evangelical Christians preach war in the Middle East, they condemn Islam for being a “warlike religion.”

Americans are so full of themselves that they are blind to their extraordinary hypocrisy.

The US government has broken every agreement with Russia by withdrawing from the anti-ballistic missile treaty, pushing NATO to Russia’s borders, conniving to place missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic, and buying governments in former Soviet republics and installing US military bases therein.

When Russian President Putin finally has enough and protests, the US Secretary of State blames Putin for being difficult and restarting the cold war.

Few Americans realize it, but they take the cake.

International polls show that the rest of the world regard the US and Israel as the greatest dangers to world peace. Americans claim that they are fighting wars against terrorism, but it is US and Israeli terrorism that worries everyone else. The rest of the world knows that the wars are about US and Israeli hegemony and that the US and Israel are prepared to engage in whatever acts of terror are necessary to achieve hegemony.

That is the bare fact.

When the US dollar loses its reserve currency status, the US empire will come to an abrupt end. Sooner or later the rest of the world will realize this and, in an act of self-protection, dethrone the dollar.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: PaulCraigRoberts@yahoo.com

October 16th, 2007, 8:10 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Alex,

Another newspaper hounded out of Syria:
The Lebanese daily Al-Akhbar announced in a release on 11 October that it will no longer be sold in neighbouring Syria because of “censorship” and “distribution” problems. The announcement comes after the newspaper ran a series of articles about “the Group of 13,” a small Salafist group alleged by the Lebanese security forces to have been involved in the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24045

Have you no shame whatsoever? You are the epitomy of a regime that does not tolerate criticism and you try to lecture others? Let me remind you that Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya have offices in Israel. What you cannot stand is people arguing back. I know you don’t have that in Syria but maybe it is something you should get used to.

October 16th, 2007, 8:14 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

What do you think about this Alex:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10767

Syria

Population: 17,381,000
Internet users: 220,000 (2003)
Average charge for 20 hours of connection: 11 euros
DAI*: 0.28
Situation**: very serious

Hopes that Bashar el-Assad’s installation as president in 2000 would bring improvements for free expression have been dashed. The government limits Internet access to a privileged minority, filters online content and monitors e-mail closely. Two people are currently in prison for posting information online or just e-mailing content taken from a banned site.

Syria’s only two Internet Service Providers (ISPs) are the post office and the Syrian Computer Society (SCS), both state-controlled. Private connections at home are reserved for people who can prove they use the Internet for professional reasons (such as doctors, lawyers and businessmen). It is the SCS that decides who gets a connection.

So most Internet users must go to public points of access. Syria has many cybercafés, mostly in Damascus. You do not have to show ID to use them. Rates run from 0.50 to 1.50 euros an hour.

Surveillance and censorship

The SCS intercepts e-mail in order to identify and monitor dissidents. For this reason, web-based e-mail services such as Hotmail have been made inaccessible. This forces Internet users to turn to the e-mail services controlled by the Syrian ISPs. One Internet user, Abdel Rahman Shagouri (see box) was arrested in February 2003 as a result of e-mail surveillance.

However, censorship affects a relatively limited number of websites. The sites of Reporters Without Borders and Amnesty International, for example, are accessible. So are those of the BBC and arabnews.com. Furthermore, the authorities do not block sites such a anonymizer.com, which means Internet users can easily evade the SCS filters.

Blocked sites

The authorities concentrate their blocking efforts on publications dealing directly with Syrian politics such as http://www.thisisyria.net, as well as Kurdish, pro-Israeli and pornographic sites. The Internet users get an error message saying: “Access refused by the control list.”

Two Kurdish sites, http://www.amude.com and http://www.qamislo.com, were rendered inaccessible in mid-March 2004. Hosted in Germany, they are a major source of information for the Kurdish diaspora and foreign news media, which often pick up their photos and video clips. According to amude.com’s editor, Siruan Hadsch-Hossein, the Syrian authorities blocked them by blocking their domain names. As a result, his site initially remained accessible to anyone using the alternative address, http://www.amude.net. Then this address was also blocked at the end of March. Massoud Hamid, a journalism student arrested on 24 July 2003 (see box), was a contributor to amude.com.

Two imprisoned Internet users

Abdel Rahman Shagouri was arrested on 23 February 2003 at a checkpoint near Damascus for e-mailing a newsletter, Levant News, from a banned website, http://www.thisissyria.net. He is being held in Saidnaya prison near Damascus, where he has reportedly been tortured. His indictment says the articles he sent via the Internet “endangered Syria’s reputation and security.”

Massoud Hamid, 29, a journalism student and a member of Syria’s Kurdish minority, was arrested during an exam at Damascus university on 24 July 2003. The reason for his arrest was said to have been the posting of photographs of a peaceful Kurdish demonstration in Damascus on http://www.amude.com. He is being held in Adra prison near Damascus and has allegedly been mistreated.

Links

The Arabic-language site of the Arabic-language governmental daily Teshreen provides access to the English-language governmental newspaper Syria Times
http://www.teshreen.com

Online English-language newspaper covering Arab countries
http://www.arabnews.com

* The DAI (Digital Access Index) has been devised by the International Telecommunications Union to measure the access of a country’s inhabitants to information and communication technology. It ranges from 0 (none at all) to 1 (complete access).

** Assessment of the situation in each country (good, middling, difficult, serious) is based on murders, imprisonment or harassment of cyber-dissidents or journalists, censorship of news sites, existence of independent news sites, existence of independent ISPs and deliberately high connection charges.

October 16th, 2007, 8:20 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Alex,

Can you bring yourself to criticize Bashar for his Internet strategy? Or is it just fine?

October 16th, 2007, 8:27 pm

 

Alex said:

AIG,

Yes, I absolutely criticize the regime’s internet strategy. You can see here and in Creative Syria that i welcome discussing anything with any regime critic.

Most of the sites they block are full of lies and exaggerations. But I would allow them not block them.

And I also criticized the arrests of Michel Kilo and Aref Dalilah

Besides, you are mixing between me and the regime.

And you are mixing between Bashar and the rest of the regime.

Overall, Bashar is doing a very good job .. not perfect, very good.

October 16th, 2007, 8:55 pm

 

Jamal said:

Frank,

I agreed with your post about nuclear issues and energy and economic development. Well said.

But why can’t the idiots representing Iran and Syria make that case themselves?

Iran kind of does, but in a weird and unconvincing way. Plus you have the spectacle of the Iranian regime being pathetically incompetent in running its own oil industry despite urgent internal economic problems. Iran’s oil production is currently well below its potential with a worsening shambles in its petroleum refining and distribution facilities.

October 16th, 2007, 8:58 pm

 

Alex said:

But a good point to note is the blocking of Alakhar which is friendly to Syria but is recently suggesting that Muslim extremists killed hariri, and jailing two Internet webmasters who criticized Saudi Arabia!

If I was in Syria I would be in jail too : )

October 16th, 2007, 9:00 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

We all criticize Bashar all the time and we criticize the Syrian government for a lot of mistakes and ineffective policies. We do not have to report to you everytime we criticize Bashar and the Syrian government. I have yet to see you criticize the Israeli government once here. So does that mean you are an Israeli regime tool? This is the type of attitude you bring to this debate.

As for Israel funding factional groups, they have done so several times in Lebanon and Iraq. You sit here and try to convince everyone of your moral superiority while conveniently ignoring facts on the ground. The fact is that Israel has armed and trained Kurds in norther Iraq. It has armed Druze and Christians in Lebanon and sent them to fight each other. Saudi Arabia has indeed funded and supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria. Let’s not forget that Hamas itself was created with Israeli support, as Israel wished to put a thorn in the side of Fateh. So please spare us your lectures.

October 16th, 2007, 9:06 pm

 

SimoHurtta said:

No, Sim is an antisemite because of the many other reasons we already discussed.

In this particular case he is just moronic:
1) The article is in an Israeli newspaper proving how robust freedom of press in Israel
2) The soldiers showed a strong solidarity towards each other proving how strong the unit spirit is in the IDF
3) The soldiers did not follow orders blindly and were not afraid to address their commanders when they thought something bad was done. This show that the IDF is truly a citizen army in which people do not follow orders automatically.
4) After a discussion with their commanders the soldiers returned to duty.

So, Sim has just shown how formidable and democratic Israel and the IDF are. You might say therefore that he is a philosemite. I think he is just a bad antisemite.

Well if you can call me an anti-Semite then you certainly are not offended when I call you and people like you modern time Nazis. You believe in religious/racial supremacy, you support occupation and the bad treatment of the slave races etc. Just like Nazis did. What is the difference in creating ghetto to Warsaw or to Gaza and West Bank? Nothing.

Luckily I know perfectly well that AIG and Akbar represent the worst kind of Jews, who make “limited anti-Semitism” justifiable. However there are millions of Jews who do not support AIG’s and Akbar’s national religious (notice AIG the irony, almost like national socialism, well original Zionists were both nationalistic and socialists and well less religious) views. I respect enormously those Jews opinions who prefer a real democratic coexistence in the modern world. If I would be real anti-Semite I would not listen to Finkelstein’s, Chomsky’s etc lectures or follow with great interest the discussion around Israel.

What comes to that article I linked about to mutiny by Israeli paratroopers. Such an event would have been impossible in Finnish army and I suppose in most armies. When I went to army we were not allowed to sing while eating, discussion was OK, not to throw food on fellow soldiers, not mention rocks or smoke grenades. The punishment would have been severe and the whole battalion would have lost their leaves for months and would have been cleaning toilets for weeks. And if we had demonstrated by not obeying orders and piled our weapons in front of the commanders office, we all would have faced military court and prison. We would have not only the laughingstock of the army, we would have been the laughing stock of the whole nation. Not heroes of “democracy”.

The Hizbollah guys and Syrian soldiers must be rolling on the floor with laughter when they read how their “democratic” enemies behave. By the way AIG do you often vote in your IDF or follow orders by the command chain. Is 890th battalion a rule of the present IDF or an exception? If is a rule G-d (as you seem to express that authority) help you. When IDF is throwing tomatoes and rocks on each others and piling their weapons on stairs of the defence ministry a tiny Hams group can occupy whole Israel. 🙂 🙂 🙂

October 16th, 2007, 9:13 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Alex,

What is the difference between Bashar and the regime?
So how does this work, Bashar wanted an open internet policy but the “regime” stopped him? Who is the regime and what is it? Who are the people that make it up and how is Bashar not one of them if not the main person? How is Bashar as the head of state not responsible for all government policies???

October 16th, 2007, 9:30 pm

 

ausamaa said:

Ehsani2,

With all due respect, why dont to stick to economics, monitary, and financial matters, in that area at least, most commentators leave you alone to impart your wisdom without seriously contesting and refuting your opnions maybe because -to me at least- they seem as a mere theoretical excersise. But are you now becoming a military historian and a military expert and an informed analyst on how strong Syria is or is not militarily?

Habibi, putting it in the simplest possible terms; if Israel thought that it could WIN a war against Syria, it would not hesitate for a minute. If a “strategic” military victory was in Israel sight, Israel would go for it at whatever cost. Simply, because Israel views Syria as a srtategic EXISTENIONAL threat, not only a security matter where a cost-benifit type of analysis applies.

Have you not figured that one out yet?

So please..!!!

October 16th, 2007, 9:31 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Sim wrote:
“What is the difference in creating ghetto to Warsaw or to Gaza and West Bank? Nothing.”

Therefore Sim is an antiemite. Thank you for proving again and again how sick you are. You really disgust me.

Population in west bank and gaza grow sat over 3% annually. Among the fastest growth rates in the world.
Until the first intifada economic growth in the West bank and Gaza was higher than all countries in the Arab world.

The population in the Warsaw ghetto went down 100% in 2 years mostly because your mother’s family and other “liberal” and “tolerant” people knowingly helped Hitler subdue Poland. Probably your relatives were even patrolling in the Warsaw ghetto and helped put down the revolt there. You are shameless.

October 16th, 2007, 9:42 pm

 

Jamal said:

Still thinking about Iran.

Imagine: Iran’s oil industry producing to its full capacity(especially at today’s prices), efficient domestic oil refining and distribution systems keeping the economy buzzing and its considerable human resources being allowed to operate to full potential.

No confused hallucinatry little militia men in charge, no religious thuggism, no world record rate of drug addiction…

Under good management Iran could be dominating the region and a significant world player without a whiff of weaponry. Israel would be eating Iran’s dust.

October 16th, 2007, 9:43 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,
In Israel we criticize the government by voting against it in elections and writing in an open press. And believe me, next time I will vote against Olmert. I much prefer Netanyahu.

How do you exactly criticize Bashar? By elections? Or in free newspapers that don’t exist? You think he reads this blog?
You support the regime by defending it on forums like this and attempting to make it look good to Americans and others!

Has anybody done what Syria has done with Hizballah? Has Israel smuggled weapons into Syria and created a militia there? Has Israel ever given weapons to Hamas to fight Fatah? You know, the more I read this blog and listen to Alex and you, the more I realize that the only solution for Syria is to create a militia like Hizballah but targeted at the Asad regime. I am not quite there yet, but I am slowly being convinced.

October 16th, 2007, 9:53 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Jamal,

I totally agree with your vision. Of course Iran would dominate the mid east if it were an open society. It has many more resources, human and others than Israel. I wish all the others on this forum would have your deep understanding.

And I am totally not being sarcastic. It is what I firmly believe.

October 16th, 2007, 9:57 pm

 
 

offended said:

and jailing two Internet webmasters who criticized Saudi Arabia!
If I was in Syria I would be in jail too : )

Alex, I think the two guys you are referring to, have mocked the Islamic stature of Saudi Arabia (as country that holds a place for Islamic shrines), what you are doing is entirely different, it is a political critique.

I hope my speculation and my conclusion are right…

October 16th, 2007, 10:26 pm

 

majedkhaldoun said:

to AP and IG and AIG,antisemitic is antizionist, but they are ashamed to be clear,even God is antisemitic to them

October 16th, 2007, 11:02 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

You’re hillarious. You’re in a complete state of denial. Israel has on several occasions armed groups and encouraged them to fight other groups. Yes, Hamas WAS armed by Israel. The PSP and the LF in Lebanon were both armed by Israel. Israel has also helped arm and train the Kurdish Peshmerga in northern Iraq. You act like you don’t play this game, when you are masters at it.

As for us criticizing Bashar, I wasn’t insinuating that there’s a free press in Syria or that Syria is not ruled by a dictatorship, but you were directing your comment at me and Alex specifically, and at Syrians in general, implying that we do not criticize our government as if we are oblivious to what goes on there or simply don’t care. We do indeed criticize the government and we do not approve of all its policies. As for having elections and free press, yes these are things we have to work to achieve, but that is OUR business not yours. We will deal with our situation as we see fit and we don’t need people giving us lectures and lessons on how to properly run a government. At least Syria is not based on a racist, exclusivist ideology that promotes the idea of a “chosen people” and works to establish a state solely for a particular group excluding others from it. And at least Syria does not engage in widespread home demolitions, land confiscations, killing, maiming, raping civilians and uprooting their trees and orchards to deny them sustenance. So before you give us any lessons, go look at your own brutal, oppressive, racist regime.

October 16th, 2007, 11:05 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

Israel never armed Hamas. You are plain lying.

Give YOU advice? Why does Asad listen to you? It seems that you are part of the regime. The Syrian on the street cannot do anything about Asad. How will you deal with the situation? You and Alex see the dictatorship staying for 200 years. You are just a front for keeping tyrants in power.

Syria has been raping its own people for 60 years. You are just blind. And by the way, we can’t know exactly what Asad has been doing because the regime oppresses all information. Why is it so afraid? Probably there are a few massacres like Hama that we don’t know about. I wonder how many mass graves there are in Syria.

Syria is the ultimate apartheid state. The 15% Alawites control the rest. Yet you have the nerve to criticize the only true democracy in the middle east.

October 16th, 2007, 11:22 pm

 

Nour said:

AIG,

Israel is a joke of a democracy. A so-called democracy for Jews only. You sit here and pass judgment on other countries and peoples while your own country has been responsible for one of the greatest crimes in history. Uprooting an entire population from their land and replacing the with your own kind. Why? Because you believe Yahweh granted you that right and gave the authority, as his chosen people, to “utterly destroy” all those around you.

You have never been to Syria to know anything about it. All these hypotheticals about the Syrian regime killing, raping, and massacring people is pure nonsense. In Syria there is no discrimination between one group and another, so this whole “Alawi” nonsense you’re trying to spew is ridiculous. Alawis do not enjoy a different stature then any other Syrians. Assad did not bring Alawis from all over the world and forcefully expel all other Syrians so that he can make a state exclusively for Alawis. Apartheid state? What a joke. ALL Syrians enjoy the same rights and priveleges, no group is isolated from the other, no walls are built to separate one “superior” group from another “inferior” group, no home demolitions and land confiscations are practiced. Go sell your propaganda elsewhere.

As for Israel arming Hamas against Fateh, this is a fact, just as it is now arming Dahlan and his gang against Hamas. Do you deny that Israel armed the PSP and LF in Lebanon? Do you deny that it arms and trains the Kurdish Peshmerga in Iraq? Look at yourself in the mirror before judging others.

The Syrian regime and how we deal with it is none of your business. This is our country and we will deal with our own problems. We don’t need any lessons from anyone; just leave us alone to tend to our matters. But the nature of Israel (an expansionist, racist, oppressive, criminal state) does not allow for that as it has to maintain instability around it in order for it to survive.

October 16th, 2007, 11:36 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

In Syria there is no discrimination because except for the elite, no one has rights. That is the nature of oppressive dictatorial regimes.

Why is Syria ostracized by the US, Europe and most of the world? Why is it a pariah state? Because the Syrian regime oppresses its people and exports instability to its neighbors.

All I have to do is read what the brave Syrians who are willing to face the truth write on blogs. The true nature of the evil Syrian regime emerges.

You are using the oldest Asad trick in the book. You demonize Israel in order to give excuses for Asad staying in power.

The Arabs citizens of Israel are 6 times richer and have much more rights than the average Syrian. All your lies and demonizing cannot change that. And now Israel is in discussions with the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and hopefully they will have a state soon.

Anyone can visit Israel and see for himself what is happening. Can you say the same for Syria? No. Why? Because Asad is hiding untold atrocities and massacres. Let the foreign press free range in Syria and then we will know what the situation really is.

In the end, why should I care? I live in a thriving democracy. It is my interest that Asad stay in power and be weak and keep Syria weak and powerless. But that is against my core beliefs. I believe that every person has the right to be free and to prosper. And therefore I believe that Syria must democratize, whatever the costs to Israel.

People like you with a slave mentality that are willing to kowtow to tyrants and even justify them, are to me worse than the dictators themselves. I think you need to read Thomas Paine’s Common Sense. Unless of course you are part of the regime and then I fully understand your position.

October 16th, 2007, 11:59 pm

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

And about dealing with your problems, you haven’t been able to deal with them in the last 60 years and have now resigned to another 200 years of tyranny. It is certainly the case that someone else needs to help you democratize because you have proven unable to do anything about it by yourself.

October 17th, 2007, 12:01 am

 

Abraham said:

Nour, you keep on stating that Israel is arming Kurds in Iraq like that is a bad thing.

We have a right to help other oppressed people in the world, especially in this region were we lack friendly neighbors.

And yes we did arm the LF in Lebanon, what were we supposed to do, allow the Palestinian and Lebanese Leftist to take over the country and continue their attacks on us?

Let us be realistic here, Israel has to look out for her own interests, if that means we have to arm some groups than that is what we will do.

October 17th, 2007, 12:04 am

 

Nour said:

AIG,

If you want to criticize something, at least know what you’re talking about. To say that no one has rights in Syria is not based in reality. We do not deny that the Syrian system is oppressive and dictatorial, but that doesn’t mean that no one has any rights. Syrians have rights and carryon their lives like all other normal human beings. Anyone who has been to Syria will tell you that life is abolutely normal there.

Syria is “ostracized” by the US for one reason and one reason only: ISRAEL. Why isn’t Saudi Arabia ostracized? Why isn’t Egypt ostracized? They both are highly oppressive regimes, even worse than Syria, and also help destabilize their neighbors. So what’s the secret? The answer is that Egypt and Saudi Arabia have agreed to be tools of the US and to keep from opposing and resisting Israel. As such, they are rewarded and allowed to join the “club”.

I don’t need to demonize Israel, Israel has done a good job of that on its own. However, my posts specifically were in response to you, who comes here and glorifies Israel every chance you get and makes it your point to show how superior Israel is to Syria. I was merely telling you to look in your own backyard before attacking others.

The “Arab” citizens of Israel do not enjoy more rights than Syrian citizens. But regardless, that is not the point, the point is that Israel does not recognize the right of the indigenous people of that land to live on that land. So just because it gave a few Palestinians Israeli citizenship, does not change the fact that Israel is intended to be a state exclusively for Jews. The Palestinians are treated as subhumans, they are denied their right to live, their homes are demolished, their lands confiscated, their trees and orchards uprooted, and they are systematically killed, tortured, raped, maimed, etc.

Anyone can visit Syria also and see for themselves. I have never known a westerner who visited Syria who didn’t find it a fabulous country. There are no hidden massacres as you claim. The one massacre that is known to all is the Hama massacre, which was a crime that we do not deny, but that resulted after the Muslim Brotherhood, supported by the US and KSA, had killed thousands of Syrians in terror attacks over a period of 3 years. However, with respect to Israel not hiding anything, is that why they prohibited reporters from entering Jenin? And they refused to allow UN investigators to know what took place there? This is your history and you have to deal with it. At least we are sensible enough to admit when the Syrian government has committed crimes.

Please do not patronize us by pretending like you care about Syrian citizens, for you surely don’t. You simply want to see Syria submit to Israeli hegemony and just accept that fate. Do you criticize Jordan for oppressing its people and carry a campaign against it? Do you do the same for Egypt? No, and the only reason why is that those two countries have accepted Israeli hegemony.

As for your last degrading comments, I shall ignore them. However, let me just clarify that the only ones with a slave mentality are those that happily become servants of Israel and the US at the expense of their country and their people, and which you pretend to admire.

Finally, about dealing with our problems, 60 years is nothing relative to the history of the world. How long did it take Europe to come out of the dark ages? We had been subdued by the Ottomans for 400 years only to come out of it and find ourselves in the hands of European colonists, who then brought foreigners to our land and established a state for them there, which has consistently led a campaign of wars and destabilization since its inception.

October 17th, 2007, 12:27 am

 

Akbar Palace said:

Alex said:

AIG,

Sim is not a bad antisemite, YOU are a bad Jew.

Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house.

Alex,

cc: SimoHurtta

Congratulations on the near total breakdown of this fine website. The owner of this website and Co-director of the Centre of Peace Studies at the University of Oklahoma would be, er, proud.

Just for yuks, if “Sim is not a bad antisemite”, does that mean he is a “good” one? Or maybe is he’s just a mediocre anti-semite. I guess with everything, there are different shades of gray.

And as far as your charges against AIG with respect to the Ten Commandments, I would say that you have no proof that AIG has coveted a neighbors house, murdered anyone, or stolen anything from anyone.

If you have information to the contrary, once again please post a link or point us in the right direction.

Alex stated further:

Kissinger visited Damascus 21 times those days. Read his book and you will understand what was going on in 73.

I understand that visiting Syria is a major part of Syrian foreign policy. This custom reminds me very much of a dominatiing mother-in-law, where, if your forget to call or visit, you must be prepared for the “serious consequences” that will follow. Needless to say, Warren Christopher, James Baker, Madeline Albright were all very aware of this custom and they were all happy to visit the Assad family on a regular basis.

Without sounding like a broken record again, after 9-11, the US decided business could not continue as usual. The custom was broken off with those tiny few remaining countries who support terrorism. As strange as it may seem, I believe this to be the correct policy. I believed it on 9-11, and I believe it now in October 2007.

Here are two different American points-of-view on this subject for your entertainment pleasure:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701420.html

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.11210/pub_detail.asp

Jamal chimes in:

Under good management Iran could be dominating the region and a significant world player without a whiff of weaponry. Israel would be eating Iran’s dust.

“Good Management” and Theocracy seem to me to be two opposing forces. Praying 5x/day (not including lunch hour) may erode worker efficiency.

Your second comment about Israel “eating Iran’s dust” is more typical of the “peace promoters” here who are planning for Israel’s destruction in so many varied ways. However, I have dreams where Israel as well as the whole Middle East (including Iran) is working together in an atmosphere of peace, tolerance and mutual understanding. Although the sensitivities are heightened in these precarious times, I have no desire to see any Arab or Muslim country wallow in poverty and hardship. I hope one day my dream will be fullfilled. I think it will.

majedkhaldoun said:

to AP and IG and AIG,antisemitic is antizionist, but they are ashamed to be clear,even God is antisemitic to them

Usually those who are consistently anti-zionist and who hold the State of Israel to a higher standard than Israel’s neighbors are anti-semitic.

Nour adds:

As for having elections and free press, yes these are things we have to work to achieve, but that is OUR business not yours.

Agreed. Best of luck to you.

Conversely, when Iran threatens to “Wipe Israel off the Map”, and when Syria and Iran arm a militia on Israel’s border, this is ISREAL’S business. I know no other country has threatened to “Wipe out Syria” or arm a anti-Syrian militia who has lobed thousands of missiles into Syrian population centers, so I would imagine it would be difficult for you to mind your own business if this was an actual fact.

We will deal with our situation as we see fit and we don’t need people giving us lectures and lessons on how to properly run a government.

These are just friendly suggestions. I trust you will do what is best for Syria.

At least Syria is not based on a racist, exclusivist ideology that promotes the idea of a “chosen people” and works to establish a state solely for a particular group excluding others from it.

You’re right about that. There are no “chosen people” in Syria. I read that on the Syrian Government website.

And at least Syria does not engage in widespread home demolitions, land confiscations, killing, maiming, raping civilians and uprooting their trees and orchards to deny them sustenance.

This could stop if terrorism ceased or if a peace treaty were possible.

So before you give us any lessons, go look at your own brutal, oppressive, racist regime.

I looked at it several times and I was impressed by how well Israeli Arab live in Israel. To be honest, I almost “coveted” their homes (I stopped before I broke any laws). And with all those Arab Knesset members, I could see how difficult it was to be an Arab- Israeli.

October 17th, 2007, 12:40 am

 

Alex said:

Akbar,

again, please read carefully and you will not have a problem with my comments;

you complained about the expression “bad antisemite”

I hate to tell you that I was simply commenting myself on your friend AIG who said it himself … check above his comments and you will see it.

So I was simply rejecting HIS use of “bad antisemite” just like you are.

As for Kissinger\s frequent visits to Damascus … that peiece of information was meant to explain to AIG that Syria was not about to lose the 73 war … when Egyptian army was surrounded, Kissinger did not need to spend much time in Egypt to negotiate the Egyptian Israeli cease fire agreement.

But this is too complicated for you probably.

October 17th, 2007, 1:56 am

 

Alex said:

Here is AIG’s comment .. read the last paragraph

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Nour,

No, Sim is an antisemite because of the many other reasons we already discussed.

In this particular case he is just moronic:
1) The article is in an Israeli newspaper proving how robust freedom of press in Israel
2) The soldiers showed a strong solidarity towards each other proving how strong the unit spirit is in the IDF
3) The soldiers did not follow orders blindly and were not afraid to address their commanders when they thought something bad was done. This show that the IDF is truly a citizen army in which people do not follow orders automatically.
4) After a discussion with their commanders the soldiers returned to duty.

So, Sim has just shown how formidable and democratic Israel and the IDF are. You might say therefore that he is a philosemite. I think he is just a bad antisemite.

October 17th, 2007, 1:57 am

 

AnotherIsraeliGuy said:

Right Alex, because you think he is not an antisemite at all which makes you just a plain racist or an ignoramus. I think I might start using Sim’s methods to show you how disgusting this is but instead of Jews, use Arabs. I’ll start quoting Osama Bin Laden and many Arab leaders and I will post all the racist and antisemtic cartoons and articles from the Arab press and then I will attribute this to Arabs in general and make the case that they are basically all racist.

We will then go to the wide support of Arabs for honor killings, women circumcision and their consistent gay bashing and murder. We can then all deduce what a despicable person you are for being an Arab. What do you say, you think it makes sense?

Then let’s discuss what Arabs say about countries they live in such as the UK and the US and deduce that like you, they are traitors to the US, Canada and the UK.

Do you think such a strategy will be justified? It seems so since you support Sim’s methods.

October 17th, 2007, 2:32 am

 

Akbar Palace said:

Alex, SimoHurtta –

cc: AIG

Here’s what I think is an interesting clip from Iranian government controlled (could it be somethng else) TV.

After seeing these clips, do you think Ahmadinejad is an anti-semite?

Why or why not?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1558.htm

October 17th, 2007, 2:36 am

 

Akbar Palace said:

AIG –

cc: Alex

On the topic of “racism”, Alex has made it clear to us on this forum that he is a supporter of Hamas.

Therefore, it is clear that Alex supports some racists and anti-semites. I can only conclude that Alex supports racists and anti-semites if they embrace the notion of defeating Israel.

October 17th, 2007, 11:59 am

 

ausamaa said:

Akbar Palce,

I guess we have to take your word on the subject of Racisim, after all Isarel is THE living example of all the ugly that Racist socities reprsent. NOt only Racist, but Ethnic-Racist society. And in the twenty first century!

October 17th, 2007, 8:03 pm

 

Friend in America said:

From Global Security Newswire:

Russia Made Secret Nuclear Proposal, Iran Says

Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei received an offer of an unknown nature regarding his nation’s nuclear program this week during a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the Associated Press reported (see GSN, Oct. 16).

Iranian sources said they believed the proposal involved a “time out” on U.N. sanctions in exchange for Iran’s suspension of uranium enrichment activities.

“The main reason for Putin’s visit to Iran was to convey this message personally to the ultimate power in Iran,” said one of the two Iranian officials.

“We will ponder your words and proposal,” Iran’s state media quoted Khamenei as saying. The report said that Iran’s highest leader would give the proposal serious consideration before making a decision (Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press I/Google News, Oct. 17).
End of exerpt.

If this news leak from Teheran is accurate, the ME will experience a cooling off period.

October 17th, 2007, 9:01 pm

 

Damascus » Blog Archives » A turkish coffee for Bashar al-Asad said:

[…] The NSC versus Rice and the Syria Strike atomic plant in Syria and has asked Damascus about information that such a site was targeted by an […]

October 18th, 2007, 10:25 am

 

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